Velodrome

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Oscar
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Velodrome

Post by Oscar » 14 Jan 2018 15:20

Can I ask the Beacon to start a petition to get a velodrome built in the West Midlands in time for the Commonwealth games. Perhaps Andy Street would help us .But more importantly get the petition on the campaigning website 38 Degrees, after all they have over 2 million members. and they have had numerous successes with the campaigns that they have launched over the years.

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Dave Cox » 14 Jan 2018 17:19

There already is a petition organised I think by someone connected to Halesowen

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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 14 Jan 2018 19:57

Article and petition by Dave Veiner here
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/voi ... lth-games/

The bid was made with London as the venue for track cycling not Birmingham.

Tim
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 14 Jan 2018 20:44

Great idea Oscar. I can't see a petition in there Pete? I've messaged Halesowen to ask if there is one, if not a joint one between many clubs may be more powerful.
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Tim
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 15 Jan 2018 06:37

Halesowen are doing a petition it should be out within a week. Sign and share away.
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Les Ladbury
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Les Ladbury » 15 Jan 2018 16:00

The bid was made with London as the venue for track cycling not Birmingham.
[/quote]

Another con !!!!!!!!!!!!

The host city is Birmingham. For those who don't understand it's B I R M I N G H A M not L O N D O N.
I've always been opposed to things like the Olympic games but the Commonwealth Games are farcical.

I'll say no more. Matron says that I mustn't get excited and anyhow it's time for my medicine.
Les

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 22 Jan 2018 10:29

Petition now live
https://www.change.org/p/councillor-ian ... &jb=262736

Please sign and share the life out of it. If committee happy Laurence could email it to all members and regularly share across social media channels. Will be interesting if it gets any legs and lots of signatures.
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Re: Velodrome

Post by laurence_cooley » 22 Jan 2018 12:57

I've shared it from the club Facebook page. I don't have a way to e-mail all members, but between Facebook and here, most should see it.

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 22 Jan 2018 13:06

Cheers Laurence
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 22 Jan 2018 22:30

1k+ signatures inside a day, next stop 5k :D
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Yosser
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Yosser » 23 Jan 2018 09:28

Signed and shared on fb. Let's hope there is some +ve end result.

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StuartWhite
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Re: Velodrome

Post by StuartWhite » 23 Jan 2018 10:52

I've signed this and have fingers/toes crossed, but I'd advise we don't get too excited.
I don't mean to be a negative Nelly, but Derby took the best part of 3 years to build, excluding land acquisition, planning and design time prior to that. Derby is also essentially a 'mini' version of what we'd require, it was a £27 million project that was brought in on a very tight budget, so I think it'd be fair to suggest a Birmingham velodrome with international capacity would cost upward of £40million. I'd guess that for the allocation of London to have even been considered in the bid there is nil wonga in that pot.
To my knowledge, there isn't even an initial sketch or design, let alone an agreed plot to lob it on, so we're at ground zero with 4 years to deliver.

If you know me, you'll know that I quite like riding track (although I'm yet to make a Beacon track champs) and have spent almost all of my velodrome time at Derby. Derby Arena is an excellent facility, but as a smaller/low capacity venue it can't hold any UCI tournaments, so instead holds concerts and other such events to help make ends meet. I think it's a very real possibility, that building a newer, more super, bigger velodrome a few miles down the road could well put them in a vulnerable position.
My Question, would there be a greater cost than the millions required to build Birmingham it's own velodrome?
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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 23 Jan 2018 12:13

I haven't signed.
There are now three Olympic sized velodromes, London, Manchester and Edinburgh; plus two smaller excellent facilities in Newport and Derby. It just doesn't strike me as a sensible proposal to build another when all the existing facilities presently struggle to break even and the PFI loans for all except Manchester are still to be paid.
Personally I would like to see what little influence local clubs have being used to ensure the Road Race and TT take place on a decent circuit using central Birmingham and passing what few iconic buildings yet to be pulled down, rather than out in the wilds somewhere.
If people had seriously wanted to build an entire new stadium it should have been part of the bid rather than raised after a bid has been made and accepted on the basis of using London for track cycling.

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 23 Jan 2018 12:45

Similar view Stu but think there are cost options around permanence of seating, cost of land it's built on etc, Newport was £7.5million although that was 2003 and like Derby only has 500seats, Derby is a bit fancy architecturally which must have put cost up.
Meanwhile Glasgow was £123million! All relative I suppose, Wembley was a billion in today's money. The recent refurb of Alexander stadium was £12.5million.
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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 23 Jan 2018 13:28

The London velodrome was over £100m. It needs to generate considerable income every year to continue. Seems the sensible place to hold a national event rather than building another 6000 seater stadium that would remain empty for most of the year.

Derby, which doesn't have the capacity to hold major events but is a first rate venue, cost£27m and was supposed to be self financing. Unfortunately not the case and Derby council has been subsidising running costs at around 3/4 m per year since it opened, this on top of the high interest rates paid to the banks for the original 27m.
Do people genuinely think that the Birmingham council tax payer would be happy to be paying for this facility for the next 30 years whilst closing libraries, nurseries and swimming pools.

Birmingham and the West Midlands needs better facilities for actually taking part in sport rather than huge expensive facilities for watching it.

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Les Ladbury » 23 Jan 2018 14:30

Pete,

You've said it all there. I think that the UK has 3 UCI standard velodromes, why spend money which the country can not afford on another vanity project. When Anne and I go to the ROH Covent Garden we travel down by a morning train and catch an early evening train back. An evening performance requires an overnight stay in London. What's the problem in doing the same for a cycling event.

I don't know how many know Pete Rogers, one of the characters of my era. When racing in the south of England he would travel from his home in Holland and stay at the Dorchester. They let him keep his bike in his room.
The last bit is not really relevant but I put it in out of interest.

Going back to the velodrome issue. I seem to remember that one of the attractions of the Olympic track was that it was to be demountable and re-erected at another location as and when necessary. What happened to that plan. Yet another con trick ?
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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 23 Jan 2018 15:15

Compare the huge costs of building and maintaining an indoor velodrome with the low costs of a facility such as the Stourport circuit, a facility that is in use for coaching, racing and practice more or less continually by grass roots cyclists. That's affordable and practicable in Brum just not as"sexy" as a velodrome .

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George
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Re: Velodrome

Post by George » 23 Jan 2018 15:40

You make some very good points, Pete and Les. However, you're not answering quite the same question as Tim and other pro-velodromers.

They are saying, "Is a velodrome inherently desirable for the country's second city and Commonwealth Games host city? Yes it is."

You are saying, "Is building a velodrome the most effective way to use a limited budget. No it isn't."

Those two positions are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps we need to ask a third question: "What can be done to increase the budget for cycling facilities?"

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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 23 Jan 2018 16:00

Not increasing a budget, creating one. The budget of the games was based on track cycling taking place in existing facilities rather than building a new one.
If this was to happen the money would have to come from somewhere and the future maintaince and running costs would also have to be budgeted for.
CAPITA shareholders would be dancing for joy at such an opportunity. Council tax payers, less so😕

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 23 Jan 2018 20:43

2k signatures inside 2days

I'm guessing BC and council maybe are planning a Birmingham closed circuit and that will be the sweetener to swallow the track cycling being in east London. Certainly that is needed more but doesn't mean this isn't.

I don't really get the need for thousands of spectator capacity for 4days of racing which is great on tv. Better 100 Birmingham school kids watching it live and then being able to ride on it than 15k Londoners watch love and no Birmingham kids gets to ride on one. Squash is at Birmingham Uni there won't be many at that! Build something with 500-1k permanent seats and another 2-4k temporary. Or ask the Queen to give the green light for a shorter 6day type track which could go in the nia like indoor athletics does rather the 250meters mandatory I think for Olympic, world's and presumably commonwealths. The organisers just need to realise the error of their ways and get creative.

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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 24 Jan 2018 09:56

Tim, the requirements are for a 200m track and a minimum, I think it's 6000, spectators. I would be the first to support shorter, six day tracks particularly the kind that exist throughout Europe, but that's not what is being proposed in this petition (it's not what BC would want either as on shorter tracks they probably wouldn't win all the medals). The petition is about a facility for the Commonwealth games and therefore has to meet the specifications. It's about venues for watching and TV not venues to participate.

If a lower spectator level was acceptable then at least Derby could have been used, which would have helped with the financial crisis that facility already has. The council has just had to find another£700,000 to keep the place open despite the original guarantee that it would be self financing by 2017. Surely it has to be better to support an existing facility at serious risk of going broke before building another one? Unless you are a PFI developer looking for more business.

I didn't support having the Commonwealth games here as I support money for participation rather than spectating. This petition is misguided, as was the campaign to get the games in the first place. This country needs facilities for participation not spectating and these games are designed to help create more spectators whom advertisers can flog stuff to on telly whilst banks make loads of cash from long term PFI contracts to build stadiums that councils can't afford to run.

Tim
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 24 Jan 2018 11:48

I totally support using Derby over London but support Birmingham having one with smaller spectating (temporary spectating for games) over just using Derby. I know what you and Stu are saying about a Brum velodrome damaging Derby but the Birmingham commonwealth games should be about doing the best thing for Birmingham's residents (participants and spectators) not the best thing for London's or Derby's or the best thing for British Cycling who were wrong to back a Derby velodrome when they should have said Birmingham/Coventry would have made way way more sense location wise.
I watched Cavendish and Wiggins at Revolution at Derby with my kids and 1.5k others seated and space for more standing and the atmosphere was great.
Look Pete your good mate Brian Cookson is quoted on the petition so you have to sign :lol:
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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 25 Jan 2018 21:20

Certainly no mate of mine and if he's supporting it I am even less likely to.😈

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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 26 Jan 2018 14:25

Perhaps the news that Birmingham Bike park, the purpose built BMX facility has just gone bust may point to at least one of the reasons to be cautious about allowing BCC to be involved in yet another large scale project.
I would suggest it is far more sensible to try and save the existing facilities like the bike park and the Derby velodrome before borrowing a load of more money to build another.

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Dave Cox » 28 Jan 2018 14:37

I agree with Pete !! There are other far more pressing priorities for cycling in Birmingham and even for cycle sport this is not a good use of money. Be good to just have a decent basic road circuit in Birmingham

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 28 Jan 2018 18:17

3k+ signatures.

Of course in general there's more pressing matters but that's nothing to do with this commonwealth games requirement, a closed circuit isn't needed for that plus there's two within an hour of Birmingham that are under utilised.

BMX bike park has been very poorly run and same with Derby in my experience. Sure maybe would be repeated or maybe we'd learn and do a better job. Worth the try imo.

Manchesters track with a conurbation population of 1.2million around it has survived since 1994, we have 1.4million I think so why not? Derby's poor management and lack of population and British Cycling's poor decision to back it has nothing to do what is being asked for here.

I enjoyed last night watching the national track championships in Manchester. Full of south Welsh, northerners and Scots grabbing the medals, I wonder why?
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 28 Jan 2018 19:17

Tim wrote:
28 Jan 2018 18:17
3k+ signatures.

plus there's two within an hour of Birmingham that are under utilised.

Unless you know better than me the only two circuits are at Tudor Grange and Stourport, both in more or less continual usage at times when booking is appropriate, hardly under utilised.
I'll take your word about how badly Derby is managed, it can be difficult to book but is constantly in use and charges quite a lot, yet still makes a loss of £750,000 per year and that's with running profitable pantos. The idea that BCC are going to do it better is staggering given their record. Hand it over to Crapita and let it run into the ground would be the standard approach.

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Dave Cox » 29 Jan 2018 00:01

Something like Tudor Grange or Stourport within Birmingham would enable young people and people without access to cars to get involved in the sport and shouldn't cost too much. I must declare an interest as a member of the Board but a mutual benefit society The Active Wellbeing Society is being set up to be run services like Active Parks.

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 29 Jan 2018 23:33

Derby still hasn't got an online booking system years in and only books up to three months in advance wasting loads of effort on both management and customers part. It will cost money to keep running as population is too small to sustain but that doesn't mean it's not money well spent or that a bigger city not in same catchment area shouldn't invest in same thing. Tudor Grange is empty all day and at most weekends. Good if you've got 4 legs and an owner to walk though. As I've said I expect a closed circuit will happen with BCs and HSBCs backing as they know it's embarrassing Birmingham has almost no cycling facilities.
A stand of the alexandra athletics stadium cost same recently as a cheap velodrome would and money was found and British Cycling has way more cashflow than athletics.
Good luck with the well-being service Dave, taking on an unloved amputated arm of the council is a tough job!

It's now or never for a track for Birmingham. Glad there's thousands wanting to at least ask the question and demand more rather than settle for London getting the glory.
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Re: Velodrome

Post by laurence_cooley » 30 Jan 2018 21:17

Tim wrote:
29 Jan 2018 23:33
A stand of the alexandra athletics stadium cost same recently as a cheap velodrome would and money was found and British Cycling has way more cashflow than athletics.
Isn't that the point, though (about BC)? I agree that it would be great for Birmingham to have a track, but don't think the council should be asked to pay for it. Council employees haven't had a pay rise for the best part of a decade, the roads are falling apart, there are record numbers of people sleeping on the streets, we have a brand new, shiny library...which doesn't open until 11am because of budget cuts. If there's going to be a track, BC and the lottery should pay for it, not the council.
Tim wrote:
29 Jan 2018 23:33
It's now or never for a track for Birmingham.
Given the track record (pun intended) of venues built for sports mega events the world over in the past few decades, personally I'd prefer to see a track built as and when local demand can sustain it. One of the reasons why the Commonwealth Games has tended to be somewhat less disastrous financially for host cities than the Olympics is the use of existing facilities, rather than building everything from scratch. Making use of London's velodrome is just a sensible part of that strategy. If it makes sense for Birmingham, build a track, but don't build one just because of a two-week elite sport event.

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Les Ladbury » 01 Feb 2018 10:04

Tim and anyone who thinks that spending a vast sum of money funding the Commonwealth Games is a good idea.

Birmingham is broke, skint, borasic they have no money, the cupboard is bare. What else can I say.

I have a condition which after extensive and expensive tests at The Priory I was referred to a specialist NHS clinic in Birmingham. After a long wait, more tests. After another month neither my GP nor myself had received the promised report.

Why ?

Because the clinic hadn't got a typist to type the report

Why xxxx money up the wall when the city can't afford to employ a typist ????????
Les

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Les Ladbury » 01 Feb 2018 10:12

On a more constructive vein than my last posting.

The original Skol 6 track was installed at Wembley. It was then re-erected in a corner of the Cycle Show in Earls Court. I believe that this is the same track at Newport. I could be wrong about the Newport location but that is as I understand the situation.

Why not use this demountable track in a suitable arena.
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 01 Feb 2018 11:14

The track used for the Skol Six, if it's still around, would be great for six day racing.
These are just the types of tracks still in use for six day racing across Europe.
Unfortunately they are not acceptable for UCI world championship, Olympics and I assume the Commonwealth games, which require longer and wider tracks.
At risk of being repetitive if Birmingham had wanted a Velodrome to support the Commonwealth games surly it would have made this part of the bid and explained where it was getting the money from to buy land, build a Velodrome and run it in the future. I am interested in serious suggestions about where this money is going to come from?
Birmingham has a deficit of over £1000 for every man, woman and child in the city; largely as a result of just these types of big ticket, lots of publicity types of expenditure so beloved of councillors of all parties. It now also faces a major problem of running basic services that it handed to its mates in Crapita which is broke and presently funding itself by robbing it's workers pensions.
I think it will be amazing if even Commonwealth crown green bowling goes ahead, Let alone building a shiny new white elephant.

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Philip Whiteman » 01 Feb 2018 13:21

As much as I would love to see funding for a Velodrome, Birmingham City Council are in a dire situation as indicated by comments above.

BCC are acutely aware of their situation. Back in the 15/16 Budget they stated that, "The council announced in its Business plan and summary budget 2015/16 ‘due to the decreasing amount of money available for us to spend we will be able to deliver fewer services to fewer people and will need to further reduce the number of people we employ to deliver the services that remain... "(Birmingham City Council, 2015, p, 11).

It was estimated that the council faced ‘a £100.1 million reduction and total corporate funding will be cut by £84.9m. In direct conflict to this, Children’s services need an additional £21.5 million, older people and adults require an additional £6.5 million to meet demand. Other adjustments include off setting savings of £112.9 million, in total, £105.4 million additional funding is needed. That gap is not promising for anything regarded as statutory will still need to attract significant savings, with damage reduced by the closure and removal of non-statutory functions. Velodromes are obviously not statutory. If a private sector organisation, BCC's gearing ratio between tangible assets and liabilities would have seen the organisation become insolvent years ago (a fate that recently befell Carillion for the gearing problem). It is also stuck with some horrendous PFI and PF2 relationships such as Amey and the nonsense with Crapita, as Pete has already mentioned.

I have not viewed the Commonwealth Games proposal but I am supposing that BCC are counting on levering in external financing from DCMS off-set by the release of strategic assets such as land (with the land available for EZ development), roll-on the WMCA. It clearly has no resource to fund the games itself unless it is counting upon some form of major economic boom in the near future, which is unlikely even with HS2.

That leaves the WMCA as first mentioned by Oscar in his original post. They have a £1.7bn transport package which is good for cycling infrastructure but not sports facilities. Their strategy does not include projects such as the Commonwealth Games but they would have been a clearer more competent body for overseeing an approach rather than declined Birmingham City Council. However, WMCA's interests are in the West Midlands region in its entirety and any velodrome investment scheme could easily see its location anywhere else outside of Birmingham, say Walsall or Coventry. In many ways, I would have more faith and hope in Andy Sweet than the City. That is the right way to go.

As for the horrendous mess in Birmingham, the full force of the Kerslake report should have been brought to bear on the City with the removal of elected local government and a turnaround process put in place, until such a time that the authority was financially viable, performing well in the delivery of services and actually reflecting public demand. But there again I am biased on the merits of turnaround. As a city manager, I would have instigated fundamental reform to ensure that the bins are collected, wasted assets are sold-off, change in corporate and service leadership children are protected, safeguarding communities, a sutainable financial footing, good educational attainment is achieved, social care of older people is achieved and that the city attracts inward investment - all the things highlighted by Kerslake, plus the termination of expensive PFI arrangements. Life would be harsh in the short term to ensure long term future sustainability and growth. Sorry, but a velodrome would not be on my fictitious radar as far as BCC is concerned, unlike the WMCA.
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 01 Feb 2018 14:19

Who has mentioned anything about the council paying the bill? They can't afford to mow the lawns.

Several alternatives to London.
1. Use Derby. Better a few midlanders watching live and able to ride after on it than none.
2. Change the rules and allow a shorter track in Birmingham. Indoor athletics is brilliant in the nia. Liz would say yes.
3. Council and Birmingham come out and say we would prefer a Birmingham velodrome but need funding to come in asap and would require say £15-20million for something basic with temp seating depending on land costs. Then look at possible income streams and fundraise with a deadline of April 2019. If not met go to option 2 if that's not possible option 1.

Explore the following:
British Cycling, Sport England etc £2-6 million.
Naming writes £?million. HSBC just bought for 8 years at Manchester. JLR or Emirates for twenty years would pay how much?
Crowdfunding individuals £3-5million
Crowdfunding businesses £3-5million to include some sponsorship coverage (hoardings) and track time.
Universities £200k for some secured daytime track time
Others I've not thought of £1million

The money is there just need to be imaginative and ask the question. But options 1 and 2 as back ups.

Don't do track (as it's an optional sport) another option. Maybe better than London so focus is on other cycling disciplines but here.
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Re: Velodrome

Post by laurence_cooley » 01 Feb 2018 14:28

Tim wrote:
01 Feb 2018 14:19
Who has mentioned anything about the council paying the bill? They can't afford to mow the lawns.
The petition is addressed to the leader of the council!

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Yosser » 01 Feb 2018 14:33

Like most of people I sit and observe but rarely comment. However sometimes people get annoyed enough to respond. Sometimes they even get angry. I feel that way now. Not with any comments about the velodrome but just the sheer selfishness of the human condition. Clearly this innate drive to look after ourselves is one of the fundamentals of Darwinian evolution. But the human brain has developed to the point where we can, and should, rationalise our drives and desires. Philip’s comments are undoubtedly fact based and probably accurate. But WHY are we in such a dire financial potion. Cue the political die-hards to slag off their chosen political opponents.
We are a fabulously rich society. Heavens above, we even eat for fun, get waited on by servants and happily pay for the privilege. (And yes, of course I am referring to restaurants). However, increase taxes to help fund the roads, NHS, mental health casualties, the old or in-firmed? I will say “yes” in public and then vote for whoever has promised me the lowest taxes. I do not blame the political parties, I blame us. Political parties do whatever they need that will get them re-elected and that is, appeal to our greed (amongst other weakness like ethnicity, gender etc).
Pete, Phil, Les, you are almost certainly true in your analysis of the Velodrome funding issue and about Birmingham’s financial position. But don’t tell me that we haven’t enough money. As a society we have more than enough money, we just choose to keep it in our pockets and then complain.
“Roll up, roll up, vote for us we promise that we will reduce your taxes unlike the other lot” And you will, vote for them that is.

Note:
Just 62 people, 53 of them men, own as much wealth as the poorest half of the entire world population - or 3.6 billion people - according to a report released by anti-poverty charity Oxfam. And the richest 1 percent own more than the other 99 percent put together. -17 Jan 2016. (That trickle down economics works a treat don't it!. Oh and please don't bother to nit-pick on the finer points of the Oxfam report, it could be exaggerated by 1000% and still be indicative of an absolute disgrace).

Rant over. (I would like to say that I feel better for it but I don’t, almost 70 yrs old and never felt as disappointed about my fellow man as I do right now).

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Philip Whiteman
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Philip Whiteman » 01 Feb 2018 14:43

Dave, I cannot disagree with your venting on the matter of a society that could afford such projects. It is of course a wider societal issue but beyond the ability of remit of BCC to address. It is a peculiar disease of the modern day. Whilst rose tinted spectacles can view history in inaccurate ways, just think of the great advancements in Birmingham from history - Cadbury in Bournville, Jo Chamberlain for The Corporation, Dave Cole for Beans-on-Toast, so on and so forth. They could do it then but we cannot now.

You think you're depressed by the situation, by total coincidence I have been marking simulation assignments all-day on the very matter of Birmingham's finances and (in) ability to produce anything that looks like a promising strategy for a future! I am so markedly depressed that even my turbo-trainer looks attractive and when a turbo trainer looks attractive you begin to realise that psychiatry has completely failed.

Don't get me wrong, I would like a velodrome like the next cyclist but BCC ain't an option, and yes wider society could afford such a scheme, but how? Well there are answers but they are all political and ideological and possibly not for this place.
Beacon Audaxes The Kidderminster Killer & From Clee to Heaven 20.7.19; Autumn South Salopian 5.10.19. www.beaconrcc.org.uk/

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Les Ladbury » 01 Feb 2018 17:52

Dave.
Am I demonstrating what you describe as "the sheer selfishness of the human condition" when, having been diagnosed as suffering from a life limiting condition I am denied treatment and medication because there is not the cash available.

There is a drug which could improve my situation but it's expensive and we have a Commonwealth Games to fund. Do any of the contributors to this debate know what it's like to be told that they have a life expectancy of 2 to 5 years but it could be a little as 6 months.

Maybe people will understand why I get so incredibly angry.
Les

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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 01 Feb 2018 18:46

laurence_cooley wrote:
01 Feb 2018 14:28
Tim wrote:
01 Feb 2018 14:19
Who has mentioned anything about the council paying the bill? They can't afford to mow the lawns.
The petition is addressed to the leader of the council!
The council is also the lead on the Commonwealth games and made the bid so is the appropriate body to address a petition wishing to now make changes to that bid.
Whatever Tim or his mate the Queen may think that is the reality of the situation and is why I haven't signed.
If people want to start a genuine campaign to improve and fund cycling sport facilities across the West Midlands I would be all for it. A 5000 seat Velodrome for use of a few elite cyclists would be very very low on my agenda.

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Re: Velodrome

Post by bobg » 03 Feb 2018 11:24

Dave. I must say that I totally agree with your comments. I did sign the petition, but have almost (but not quite) changed having seen some of the very valid points put forward by others.
There is not a hill that is to steep to walk up.

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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 03 Feb 2018 11:49

Someone mentioned dismantable, semi permanent tracks such as the one used at Wembley for the Skol six day in the seventies and early eighties. There was one of these in Birmingham at Bingley hall does anyone know if it survives or was it burnt down in the insurance scam?

There was also one in Wolverhampton I was given to believe, although it may have been the same track. Cycle races on these tracks was as popular over here as it is in Belgium back in the fifties.

Yosser
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Yosser » 03 Feb 2018 16:18

Phil I thank you or lifting my spirits by referencing me the many acts of selflessness and good will that exist and have always existed. Thanks.

Bob (and numerous others). I get it. With the current cash restrictions on national and local government finances we would be using precious funds for a vanity project that benefits the few. I suspect that the petition is more of a dream / protest vote on wider issues than any realistic hope of success. (To sleep, perchance to dream – ay, there's the rub).

Les, I cannot conceive of the dismay that your condition would have upon me if I were to find myself in the same position. I offer my heartfelt sympathies.
You ask;
“Am I demonstrating what you describe as "the sheer selfishness of the human condition" when, having been diagnosed as suffering from a life limiting condition I am denied treatment and medication because there is not the cash available”.

No, in this example, clearly not. But this has little to do with the basis of my desire for a velodrome. I would willingly abandon all such luxurious frivolities if it improved the lot of the nation as a whole. I would also very willingly give up a larger proportion of my income for the same reason. I would be happy to assist people, (like you Les), by voting for any political party that thought along those same humanitarian lines. Your situation is though an exemplar of my point about the greed aspect of the human condition. The overall tax burden in the UK is one of the lowest in the developed world. It is certainly lower than the European average. Why? I don’t know. However whilst I don’t why we do it, it is as a result of us as individuals deciding that low taxes is what we want. We don’t vote for what is best for the country but for what is best for us at that moment in time. As long as the people who are young, healthy and in a good place both emotionally and financially, (the majority) vote to look after themselves rather than consider the less fortunate (the minority), we will continue to have sufficient funds for supporting the needy. After all, there are more of them than the needy. That is my point. If, over the many years that we, as a country, had been more willing to add to the tax burden then we may just have had the wherewithal to fund so many of the areas that we are now failing in; NHS, mental health, social mobility, adequate policing, class sizes... And on and on and on. For me, looking after the less fortunate always was one of the defining criteria of what constitutes a civilised society.
So now I look with hope to the young, the very people that we ourselves were a brief 50 yrs ago. And should the youth see things differently from our generation of largely self interested bigots, we may even have had sufficient funds to help people like you Les. I truly wish that were so right now.

I am sure many of you people are far too busy to do this, but should you have the time and inclination, have a look at these two tables and see if you can ascertain any correlation. (And yes, I am aware of the correlation / causation syndrome, rooster or otherwise).

http://time.com/money/4862673/us-tax-bu ... countries/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Hap ... -Europe-48

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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 03 Feb 2018 16:50

Dave, do you really believe our generation are"largely self interested bigots "?

Having spent my life standing on picket lines, fighting for equality and a better life for all alongside a significant proportion of my generation that is not my experience.
True to say that nearly 42% of those who voted in 1979 voted for a government with a commitment to dismantling the achievements of the generation that went before, but that wasn't even a majority and it has been a consistently smaller number who have voted for advocates of such policies since.

My generation paid much higher tax rates and for a lot longer(I started to pay income tax at 30% and 10% Ni at 16, I paid a further 8% pension at 18; not at all unusual for our generation. (I also paid trade union subs which sadly is unusual these days) So seeing the NHS and pensions I have paid for all my life being dismantled because we need to pay bankers large amounts of money for the mess they made of the economy is a tad annoying.

Yosser
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Yosser » 04 Feb 2018 09:03

Pete I find very few of the people with whom I regularly mix would be as I described so disparagingly. I have found that even less so in the world of cycling and, amongst my close friends, almost none that I know off. In my, admittedly limited, knowledge of you, that description would again be wildly inaccurate. I would suggest that with the history you describe you are one of the good guys and should be justifiably proud. If only that was the norm.

Oscar
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Oscar » 04 Feb 2018 15:21

Wow what have I started. Sorry to hear of your health problems Les.

Tim
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 12 Feb 2018 08:40

The petition is addressed to and once closes will go to 'decision makers' Ian Ward (birmingham city council), Andy Street (combined authority mayor), Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth Games committee and British Cycling. It says to "cllr Ian Ward and three others" click on others to see who it's to.

I wonder what the economic situation was in 92/93 (too young to remember :D ) before Major launched his National Lottery tax. As then Manchester city council successfully bid to the Department of the Environment (£6.5m), the Sports Council (£2m) and the Foundation for Sport and the Arts (£1m) and British Cycling for funds to build theirs.
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petemarshall
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Re: Velodrome

Post by petemarshall » 12 Feb 2018 08:59

It was a bid for a single national stadium. It bankrupted BC and was widely seen as a white elephant, sitting unused and empty most of the time. It was saved by the lottery funding for BC when it became home of the British Olympics development programme for cycling with a huge budget.
Entirely a different situation from a stadium in Birmingham.

Yosser
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Re: Velodrome

Post by Yosser » 12 Feb 2018 09:39

Very true Pete. I was sitting net to Bob Barber(for seven years the Velodrome Cycling Manager at the National Cycling Centre, Manchester, and previously the Competition Director for British Cycling) at the BC awards dinner on Sat night. He also said that although very heavily used, the centre loses money BUT it has Lottery funding. Cue B'ham...

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Re: Velodrome

Post by Tim » 14 Feb 2018 22:46

But cycling now and the cash within the industry is in a totally different place too than 93 when Obree was using BMX and washing machine bits and Boardman was taping up his sons bedroom windows to create a DIY altitude chamber to get themselves to the Tour and Olympics.
Of course finding required funding in addition to rider, club, and school hire fees is needed, doesn't mean 'it's losing money'. Just other funding streams are required to top up to break even. Just as any theatre like MAC in cannon hill does. If we only built and kept assets that are profitable going there would be no playing fields, parks, pools, libraries, or theatres just indoor trampoline parks and drive thru Starbucks.

Being v creative and innovative to build something either temporary or with lower running costs than Derby would be needed though but that is not impossible with new building methods and sustainable energy tech. Finding the required low cost land in right location more problematic I expect.
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