Tour SPOILER

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Tim
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Tour SPOILER

Post by Tim » 05 Jul 2017 07:28

Anyone agree with the comms that Sagan should have been dqd? A demotion maybe. Demare made a much bigger move across Bouhani so surely he should be penalised too? Big shame for Cav and race overall.
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CakeStop
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by CakeStop » 05 Jul 2017 07:55

I reckon the contact was with the shoulder as Sagan naturally rocked from side to side and that the elbow came out for balance after the contact and as Cav was already on the way down.
Eat cake before you're hungry

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petemarshall
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by petemarshall » 05 Jul 2017 08:16

The commissaires definitely needed to demonstrate their authority as increasingly sprinters are straying from their lines in a dangerous manner and even though Sagan's elbow may not have been a deliberate action to knock a rider off it does amount to dangerous riding. You do not stick an elbow out when making contact, you lean in.

However DQ is an overreaction to a first offence. Their initial punishment of demotion and points deduction was enough.

Now Valverde, Cav and Sagan are gone it's going to be a pretty boring tour. Roll on the Vuelta.

Lapin
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by Lapin » 05 Jul 2017 09:57

First time a world champ has been kicked out since the Festina affair in '98!

DQ is too much for a sport that has happily turned a blind eye to practices that made it more exciting for spectators at the cost of rider's health since the very beginning. Is this DQ being used as a way to help shore-up the tour's credibility as a 'clean race'? Why not points deduction for every sprinter who is seen to veer off their chosen line? Fix the problem with sprints, not the 'problem sprinters'.

I'm off to France in a week to chase the tour too - now a significantly diminished fanboy.

You wouldn't get this with the thin men eh.

Tim
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by Tim » 05 Jul 2017 16:19

Yep strange one all round. It's as though they think it was a deliberate elbow having watched footage again to upgrade the punishment, small chance it was but very unlikely and the elbow definitely didn't cause the crash. The winner moved off line way more after without a punishment and others before the Cav crash. Also what or who caused the big crash just before it? Any rider punished for that one? Just a poor decision by the judges and no doubt affects most people's dreamteam!
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Les Ladbury
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by Les Ladbury » 06 Jul 2017 12:37

There's no doubt in my mind that Peter Sagan should have been thrown off le Tour.
He would have known where Cav was and that one way of stopping him coming through was to come down on him and to stick his elbow out.

I have great respect for PS as a rider but in just about every other respect I find him a complete pain in the derriere.

How long would it be before amateurs thought that actions such as displayed by PS are quite acceptable?

Fortunately we don't see Sagan performing wheelies as much as he used to. Maybe someone has had a word with him.

To reinforce my argument, recently I was at a junior race in France. The leader was away by himself and when he crossed the line to win he decided to pull (I think that that's the expression) a wheelie.

He didn't get it quite right with the result that his bike went one way and his face another, smack straight into the tarmac.
This was in France where there is a exceptionally good health service so they should be able to put his nose together.

I say, I say, I say my dog's got no nose.
How does he smell ?

I expect you know the rest.
Les

Les Ladbury
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by Les Ladbury » 06 Jul 2017 13:36

I'm watching today stage on the tele and I understand that the lawyers have now got involved. The claim is that it was a "racing incident".
My arse it was.

Tim,
As far as penalising Arnaud Demare.
Arnaud is FRENCH.
His team is FRENCH.
It's the Tour de FRANCE.
The stage was in FRANCE.
FRANCE hasn't had a stage winner since, I think, 2008.
Sorry if you don't like it but that's the way it is :) :) :) :) :)

Must get back, I've opened a bottle of Bergerac and must finish it before Anne gets home.
Les

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petemarshall
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by petemarshall » 06 Jul 2017 17:14

I think you'll find French riders have won plenty of stages, just not a GC.

Tim
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by Tim » 06 Jul 2017 21:19

It was first French sprinter to win since 2008. Just heard Bouhani say that Demare was warned by the commissaires for the incident! Warning for one, expulsion from the race for another? Mucho difficile comprendez :D
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petemarshall
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by petemarshall » 06 Jul 2017 22:33

These bloody frenchies'ey. Prejudice against good old Lance because he was a yank,had the cheek to accuse him of doping😱

Prejudice against British teams, accusing Sky of cheating, which they obviously would never do., and now conspiring against Peter Sagan so a Frenchie can win a stage😈

Our perhaps they have made a honest decision because it seemed the correct thing to do in order to prevent sprints getting even more dangerous?

I don't agree with their decision but I have a lot more faith in French officials to act without prejudice than I do the majority of the British media and fans.

Yosser
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by Yosser » 07 Jul 2017 14:25

Sagan the Fall Guy? Yes and no.

In all walks of life, people get way with what they are allowed to get away with. Long have I heard derisive comments of footballers for diving or exaggerating injury to gain an advantage over the opposition. These players are doing the right thing for themselves/ team. The problem lies not with the competitors but with the with the officials for allowing this behaviour to continue. It is thus with the professional cyclists with the end of stage sprints. There has always been a laxity of discipline in the sprints. Watch Abdoujaparov in action and see the seeds of lax ruling by the cycling authorities. Many more sprinters should have been penalised before this. Currently the chances of being penalised are low, rewards are high, just like diving in the penalty box. If the juice is worth the squeeze…
I have also heard people opine that it is very difficult to hold a straight line when sprinting flat out. This is nonsense, the fastest sprinters on the planet are the track sprinters. The have a very narrow range of digression off the straight and narrow, having to stay inside the red line for the final part of the sprint. They almost always manage to stay inside the “sprinters line” purely because, almost without exception, they will be DQ if they don’t. It will still be a judgement call in a road sprint but the safety of the riders should be paramount.

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petemarshall
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by petemarshall » 07 Jul 2017 16:33

I think you hit it right on the nail here Dave. The riders respond to the level set by officials. In six day racing, for instance, the rules on physical contact are much more leniently interpreted but straying from the line is punished. Riders expect to be DQ for straying from the line and 9/10 times it happens. On the road it's less than 1/10 so riders risk it.
Whilst I fully agree that it's about time the 200m sprint rules were applied I still think DQ from the whole race was an overreaction not to the straying but to the elbow. I would have docked points and issued a warning not a DQ in this case, but then I'm not a commisaire and don't know all the pressure they are under.
I sometimes wonder if riders are warned of these things at riders briefing these days or are they all to important to attend such things? I noted on a recent local road race riders turning up after a briefing, the commisaire commented on it, but still let them race😕

Tim
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by Tim » 07 Jul 2017 17:14

Also saw a replay since of Sagans win the day before, after clipping back in he moved massively to the right without reason impeding another rider on a much slower uphill sprint, no punishment or warning I'm aware of there and maybe if there had have been this incident would have been avoided. Maybe.
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Les Ladbury
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by Les Ladbury » 07 Jul 2017 18:36

My error
I should have said sprint stage.
Dave, Track sprinting is rather different to road sprinting. I'll give you a clue $$$$$$$$ $£££££££££££££££££ €€€€€€€€€€€
As for playing right up to the rules, Is there anyone out there who doesn't do just that when filling in there income tax return. :D :D :D
Same thing methinks.
I hope that there is never a situation whereby organisers find it necessary to introduce daft gimmicks in order to make cycling more "attractive". I see it in F1 and WRC and it's rather pathetic.
Les

Yosser
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Re: Tour SPOILER

Post by Yosser » 08 Jul 2017 11:27

Yep you are spot on Les. It is the risk / reward emphasis. As I said, I have NO issue with the innate drive that humans have to push the limits, it's what we do, and not just in sport. That is why we elect officials. What is going to be interesting is what happens from now on through. Consistency is what is required. Now if they were to consistently punish those that dive / feign injury in football ...

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