20mph limit? quick survey

Tim · Post by **Tim** » 29 Oct 2013 13:21

Survey:

https://www.birminghambeheard.org.uk/development/20mph

Info:

http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/20mph

Ed Moss · Post by **Ed Moss** » 30 Oct 2013 09:24

Done, but it's only a great idea if it's regularly/strictly enforced, which I doubt it will be.

Dave Cox · Post by **Dave Cox** » 30 Oct 2013 09:40

Agree about enforcement and ACPO have changed their tune on this. In some States in the US speed limits are rigorously enforced and any car speeding or overtaking is very conspicuous. I'm hoping that social pressure in residential areas will radically reduce speeding.

Post by **CakeStop** » 30 Oct 2013 18:19

I think I read that it would be 'enforced' only by conscience speed displays.

Les Ladbury · Post by **Les Ladbury** » 30 Oct 2013 18:21

I’m totally, totally, totally opposed to this proposal for many reasons. It will do nothing to prevent the loonies who speed whether it is a 20 or 30 mph limit but it increase the frustration experienced by drivers who have to drive along a dual carriageway which now has a 40 limit. This is just one reason.
I drive 15/20000 miles a year the vast majority of which is in France. There they have a far more enlighten attitude to car use. I’m waiting for comments about their accident rate so I will not be surprised when they start coming.

Why is this country so anti motorist?

It’s the daftest thing heard since someone said “Look at all of them arrows H”

laurence_cooley · Post by **laurence_cooley** » 30 Oct 2013 18:41

Unless I've missed something, it's about making residential streets 20 mph zones, not reducing the speed limit on dual carriageways?

Tim · Post by **Tim** » 30 Oct 2013 19:05

Les 5years ago before i started cycling and before i had kids i would have agreed with you 100% but I now totally support this proposal. If my 5 year old is hit crossing a residential road by a car traveling at 35mph I will be going to his funeral, if he's hit by a car traveling at 25mph I probably won't.

This is solely for residential streets and other specific areas like outside schools.

Les Ladbury · Post by **Les Ladbury** » 30 Oct 2013 19:07

laurence_cooley wrote:Unless I've missed something, it's about making residential streets 20 mph zones, not reducing the speed limit on dual carriageways?

I read somewhere last week that the proposal was for all roads in Birmingham.

In France they have a 20k/h limit outside schools and, I think, hospitals. I find that the vast majority of drivers adhere to this. Also in general drivers in France do stick to the speed limits because the penalties can be very severe. These vary from a spot fine for minor infringement through suspension of driving licence on the spot to confiscation of the vehicle and imprisonment. These are enforced. The gendarmerie can and will stop drivers without a reason for breath checks, insurance and anything else that they can think of. I don't have a problem with this.

Les Ladbury · Post by **Les Ladbury** » 30 Oct 2013 19:13

Tim wrote:Les 5years ago before i started cycling and before i had kids i would have agreed with you 100% but I now totally support this proposal. If my 5 year old is hit crossing a residential road by a car traveling at 35mph I will be going to his funeral, if he's hit by a car traveling at 25mph I probably won't.

This is solely for residential streets and other specific areas like outside schools.

Tim,

Many years ago I hit a little girl, she was about 8 or 10 years old. Not only did I collide with her but she was on a pedestrian crossing at the time. I think that she was on her way to school. It was at the pedestrian crossing at the pub, I think that it is call The Three Horseshoes" in Stirchley.

I'll await any comments with interest.

Post by **CakeStop** » 30 Oct 2013 20:08

Les Ladbury wrote:I read somewhere last week that the proposal was for all roads in Birmingham.

What you read was incorrect Les.....

Which roads in Birmingham would be affected by the change?

The 20mph speed limits would be introduced mainly on residential roads, which account for around 90 per cent of the roads in the city. Other ‘A’ and ‘B’ roads would keep 30mph or 40mph speed limits but, in some cases, specific local circumstances might mean a 20mph speed limit would be considered – for example:

busy high street shopping areas like A435 High Street in Kings Heath, Alum Rock Road, or A41 Soho Road; and
around schools, leisure facilities, hospitals and public transport interchanges.

PatBoySlim · Post by **PatBoySlim** » 30 Oct 2013 20:13

The estate I've just moved to already has tragic calming measures (speed bumps) and a 20mph speed limit after a young child was killed. The speed bumps every 100 yards are not good for cycling over.

Les Ladbury · Post by **Les Ladbury** » 30 Oct 2013 22:31

CakeStop wrote:
Les Ladbury wrote:I read somewhere last week that the proposal was for all roads in Birmingham.
What you read was incorrect Les.....

Which roads in Birmingham would be affected by the change?

The 20mph speed limits would be introduced mainly on residential roads, which account for around 90 per cent of the roads in the city. Other ‘A’ and ‘B’ roads would keep 30mph or 40mph speed limits but, in some cases, specific local circumstances might mean a 20mph speed limit would be considered – for example:

busy high street shopping areas like A435 High Street in Kings Heath, Alum Rock Road, or A41 Soho Road; and
around schools, leisure facilities, hospitals and public transport interchanges.

Thanks for clarifying that point Steve.

But what it means is that drivers will have to look out for changes in the speed limit over and above those that exist now. Another distraction.

I'm sorry to have to appear to keeo saying In France.................. but there are quite a lot of things that they do rather better than we do in the UK.
For example. When you pass the sign when entering a town or village a 50k/h speed limit applies. No excuses that's it. If conditions warrant a higher or lower limit there will be a very visible sign stating this is the case. When I drive I almost always know what the speed limit is, this is not always the case here.

I recently saw an item on UK tele where a woman, she was articulate and appeared to be a sensible person, was saying that it would be good if the road in which she lived could be closed to enable her children to play in the road. How do you deal with people like that?

Tim, I've heard what you say so many times. There's no answer. Well actually there is. Look after your children.

Post by **CakeStop** » 30 Oct 2013 22:50

Les, I suggest you read the full FAQs at http://tinyurl.com/p5zwntx - it sounds fairly simple to me.

I don't believe it needs to be all that complicated anyway - if everyone simply drives at a speed appropriate to the road and other circumstances everything will be fine. I'm not fully persuaded that what is proposed will achieve this objective but I am willing to be persuaded and I'm less persuaded by arguments that it'll have the opposite effect.

Philip Whiteman · Post by **Philip Whiteman** » 31 Oct 2013 08:08

Whilst a supporter of the 20mph limit as both a driver and a cyclist, I am very cynical of the consultation exercise and Birmingham City Corporation's motive. In short, if you really expect that this consultation exercise is going to change any aspects on the design and implementation of this policy, forget it!

Public consultation exercises such as these should be designed to gauge the public's priorities, measuring alternative policy options and to inform the policy making process at early stage. This consultation exercise is evidently post-hoc to the actual decision. For example, there is only one question about the acceptability of the principle with the remainder containing a built in bias towards the policy of 20mph with only marginal options. The data collected via this consultation will provide little meaningful information for policy makers. As far as I am aware, the design for the policy process was undertaken some months ago and this consultation exercise has come after that stage.

So why is this the case? Firstly, incompetent consultation research design indicative of the author's lack of awareness of the policy design or its objectives as evidenced by the poor questionnaire design and available options for respondents. Secondly, such a major policy shift by a public authority would leave it susceptible to judicial review if consultation had not taken place. So, the purpose of this exercise may simply be about ticking the box and policy makers will have little regard to the results. Thirdly, BCC can provide a defence that it 'consulted' when political opponents decide make capital out of the new limits thus providing legitimacy to its initial decision. Overall, it appears to be a cynical consultation process and not related to evidence based policy making.

Clive · Post by **Clive** » 31 Oct 2013 11:45

I'm not convinced an arbitrary 20mph speed limit will make much if any difference without effective enforcement. Irresponsible drivers will ignore it as they do already, and careful drivers already drive according to the prevailing conditions.

A point often overlooked is that any speed limit is a maximum speed allowed; it is often inappropriate and sometimes dangerous to drive at that set maximum. Drivers are still legally obliged to drive safely and in keeping with road and weather conditions.

I think resources would be better used if directed at more effective policing; educating drivers, stopping and punishing bad drivers, and banning dangerous and reckless drivers from the road.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » 31 Oct 2013 14:54

I don't know either way whether it will actually get majority to drive better and if there will be any reduction in deaths and serious injury but for me it makes sense to try. 35 years ago the majority thought drink driving was fine and compulsory seat belts were crazy but most now think differently.

In 1990 there were 1.1cars per household now it's 2 and so I don't think it's an anti car measure just a way to try and get car/pedestrian/cyclist etc to exist alongside each other with less deaths.

Agree the survey is an afterthought and they are following other councils, not sure this isn't an evidence based decision though

I know the 3 Horse Shoes well Les. Has two pelican crossings outside. Your not the only one to have hit a pedestrian on one of the crossings, this man obviously wasn't looking after himself whilst out buying his Sunday paper
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/dec/ ... t-car-dies

Andy Terry · Post by **Andy Terry** » 31 Oct 2013 16:15

As long as they don't enforce it with road humps.

Post by **CakeStop** » 31 Oct 2013 18:37

I wonder whether money would be better spent enforcing existing speed limits and prosecuting mobile phone users than on all the signage required for 20mph limits that will not be enforced.

rdleaper · Post by **rdleaper** » 31 Oct 2013 22:24

Andy Terry wrote:As long as they don't enforce it with road humps.

Ah yes, road humps. I remember once speaking to someone who was actually involved in some way in designing road humps for council use (sorry bit vague on the details). He said they are each designed specifically to allow cars to go over them reasonably comfortably at a particular speed; i.e. use 1 type of hump for 10 mph limit (car parks etc), another for 20 mph etc. and presumably also for durability needed. However, councils make little or no consideration to this and end up using the wrong sort most of the time.

So road humps, if used properly, could actually work well with little inconvenience, were it not for the usual political idiocy.

rdleaper · Post by **rdleaper** » 31 Oct 2013 22:29

Clive wrote:A point often overlooked is that any speed limit is a maximum speed allowed; it is often inappropriate and sometimes dangerous to drive at that set maximum. Drivers are still legally obliged to drive safely and in keeping with road and weather conditions.

Great point, Clive. This can apply to speed (although only really higher speeds e.g. motorway so not relevant here). Good drivers will drive safely and bad drivers won't. The challenge is to change the behaviour of the latter to that of the former, rather than inconveniencing all drivers regardless of their standard. A tough thing to do, though, for a local council with no power over legislation.

rdleaper · Post by **rdleaper** » 31 Oct 2013 22:38

Les Ladbury wrote:I'm sorry to have to appear to keeo saying In France.................. but there are quite a lot of things that they do rather better than we do in the UK.

My albeit brief experience of French driving involved someone overtaking by driving down the middle of a 2-lane carriageway and "hoping" the drivers on the opposite side swerved virtually off the road to avoid him/her. So in my experience, driving may not be one of them.

Les Ladbury · Post by **Les Ladbury** » 01 Nov 2013 08:00

Philip. I agee with what you say about procedures. You almost certainly have greater insight into these matter than most. Are not many (most?) a case of ever mind the facts that we have hit an iceberg, are the deckchairs stacked nice and tidily?

Tim. Can I expand on what I said about the incident in Stirchley. Also it will bring a cycling element into the explanation.

I occured when I had a propert job and worked in the ciy centre.
I would cycle to work every day. On this occasiob as I approached the crossing the girl was running along the footpath with her back towards me. As she reached the crossing, still running, she grabbed hold of the pole and swung at right angles to run across the road. I had no chance of avoiding her. Incidentally I was probably doing around 20 m/h. I hit her. She went up into the air and I finished up on the road. Fortunately there were people around who went to the the aid of the girl. Fortunately I was able to get two witnesses as to what actually happened. An ambulance and the police arrived and the girl was taken to hospital. She only had a few cuts and bruises fortunatlely. If I had been driving a car and if I didn't have a couple of witnesses the police would certainly have charged me with something.

On my way home that evening I called at the girls home and explained what had happened to the girls mother. She was very understanding and placed no blame on me. If fact she was the only person to enquire as to how I was.

Would a 20m/h limit have changed anything?

Richard. You say that you have a brief experience of driving in France. Well I have considerable experience and I can identify with what you say. You did miss two things, they are almost certainly driving faster than in the UK and if one did go off the road they would almost certainly dive into a 2 metre deep ditch. Not a good idea. The worst aspect of driving in France is tailgating. They're good at that.

My experience of experts cock-ups goes back as far as the Ground Nut Scheme in Africa, remember that? right up to the new Birmingham library and the expert who on TV yesterday described a Rolleiflex 2.8f as a top quality 35mm film camera.

I think that I will stop there, Matron says it's time for me to go and lie down.

David Cole · Post by **David Cole** » 02 Nov 2013 19:38

I am in full support of the 20 mph speed limit - I believe it will make roads safer and encourage more people to cycle and walk in the City

Dave

bobg · Post by **bobg** » 13 Nov 2013 12:33

Just back from 2 weeks in the USA and was able to follow the speed limit debate. All junctions over there have a stop sign, and the penalty for not stopping is a hefty fine, I think it is about 250 US dollars. The police are now enforcing this law more rigorously and their advice is, stop and count to 3 to avoid a fine. I feel that if we adopted a similar policy fewer cyclists would be hit by cars pulling out of side roads particularly on residential streets.

Les Ladbury · Post by **Les Ladbury** » 15 Nov 2013 09:44

bobg wrote:Just back from 2 weeks in the USA and was able to follow the speed limit debate. All junctions over there have a stop sign, and the penalty for not stopping is a hefty fine, I think it is about 250 US dollars. The police are now enforcing this law more rigorously and their advice is, stop and count to 3 to avoid a fine. I feel that if we adopted a similar policy fewer cyclists would be hit by cars pulling out of side roads particularly on residential streets.

They've been doing that in France for years.

Ed Moss · Post by **Ed Moss** » 21 Nov 2013 16:34

Totally unscientific but coming out of Wolverhampton this afternoon there is a 20mph limit for about a mile going towards the M54.

I was the only one doing 20mph, even with a speed camera half way along.

The Chief Constable could have had a new Jag had there been someone there to book and fine all the speeding drivers...

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