George has another STD

George · Post by **George** » 26 Jul 2010 21:10

It may come as a bit of a surprise to some of you, but, as the heading suggests, I have recently suffered my third Spontaneous Transmitter Death in about five years.

All involved models of Cateye Wireless computer, and all followed the same pattern:
For a couple of rides, the computer gives erratic readings; overall mileage and speed are less than expected, and once or twice I'll notice a sudden jump in the speed display, e.g. from 25kph to 5kph and back again in a couple of seconds. Then the computer packs up registering altogether. I fiddle with the position of the transmitter relative to the magnet; makes no difference. I test the 'head unit' on another bike; it works fine. I test another head unit with the suspect transmitter; no signal registered. I change the battery in the transmitter; makes no difference. Reluctantly, I conclude that the transmitter has simply died, for no apparent reason.

It's possible to buy new transmitters on their own, but they are almost as much as a whole new computer, so I've always reasoned that replacing the whole lot made more sense. However, I'm now building up a little collection of partnerless head units, so if anyone happens to have an old Cateye wireless transmitter, I'd be pleased to hear from you.

The other thing I'd be pleased to hear is whether regular GPS users feel that their GPSs remove the need for a computer. Do most GPS users have a GPS on its own, or a GPS and a computer? I ask, because I have been thinking of getting a GPS for a while, and am now wondering whether my latest STD is a sign that now is the time to grasp the nettle.

Andy Terry · Post by **Andy Terry** » 26 Jul 2010 21:50

GPS will give you accurate distance measurement - until you enter a tunnel, pass through a deep gorge or thick forest. The ideal combination is GPS and (wired) computer.

I have a Cateye Mity circa 1991 still going strong.

Dave Cox · Post by **Dave Cox** » 26 Jul 2010 22:03

Obvious point but radio transmitters like at Elmbridge produce this effect. Perhaps a secret GCHQ transmitter has been secreted under Ankerdine.

Post by **CakeStop** » 26 Jul 2010 22:06

I've read elsewhere suggestions that Cateye computers aren't good value for money [edit - disproved by Andy]. I've used a couple of cheap "Raleigh" wireless computers from Argos which have been faultless. One has had a single change of batteries in 6 years and the original batteries in the other are still going after 5 years. Thinking about it, I bet when a battery dies I'll find the spares that have been in my saddle wedge for 4 years will also be dead.

I've continued using the computers after buying a GPS, mainly because I only take the GPS when I need it because I'm going somewhere I'm unfamiliar with or doing an audax or other event.

It depends upon what you want from a GPS. Some units are sophisticated bike computers / training data recorders with decent navigation facilities. Others are sophisticated navigation devices with decent bike computer facilities. Mine is the latter type and it doesn't for example provide different records for different bikes.

Personally I'd rather have a cheap computer plus GPS mount on each bike and just take the GPS when I need it. If however, you value the training data and related facilities offered by some units then you probably won't mind taking the GPS out on every ride and so you might as well do without a computer.

Ed Moss · Post by **Ed Moss** » 27 Jul 2010 09:28

Give NHS direct a call, they should sort you out....

George · Post by **George** » 27 Jul 2010 10:34

I fear I may have made Cateyes look less reliable than they really are. I have not suffered a series of three failures on one bike in the space of five years. I have several bikes, each with its own computer, and have suffered three STDs across my 'fleet' of bikes in the space of roughly five years. All the transmitters were about five years old. The head units seem to go on regardless; my oldest two go back to 2001. But it would be nice if the transmitters were equally reliable.

If I get a GPS, it will not be with a view to spending hours analysing training data (I don't need a gadget to tell me that I haven't done what I intended to do). It will be as a navigational aid for rides through relatively unfamiliar country. However, I anticipate still wanting to be able to glance down and see basic stats such as speed and distance, without having to scroll through various settings.

George · Post by **George** » 27 Jul 2010 10:43

Animal wrote: ... on my new bike I purchased last week ...

Weren't you in Norway last week?

Post by **CakeStop** » 27 Jul 2010 11:02

George wrote:If I get a GPS, it will not be with a view to spending hours analysing training data (I don't need a gadget to tell me that I haven't done what I intended to do). It will be as a navigational aid for rides through relatively unfamiliar country. However, I anticipate still wanting to be able to glance down and see basic stats such as speed and distance, without having to scroll through various settings.

In that case (providing you don't wish to use it for multi-day touring) it comes down to how much you want to spend. The cheaper models oriented to navigation include a screen with all that data and you can set the screen sequence up as you wish so you could toggle between map and stats with a single button press. However, if you wish to replace your fleet of computers with a GPS that you switch between bikes one of the sportier models may be better, especially if you wish to retain a separate record for each bike.

The sportier models use an integral rechargeable battery which I think typically lasts for a full days riding (someone who has one will be able to confirm). If you want to do a multi-day tour and won't have access to a power supply to recharge overnight then a model that uses replaceable AA's may be better - a pair of Lithiums last me just over 40 hours ride time and a spare set weighs nothing.

I believe maps are displayed more prettily on the more expensive models - more like an OS map and I think they're included in the price. With the cheaper models you have a choice of buying a set of maps (which can cost as much as the GPS) or downloading open source maps.

slogfester · Post by **slogfester** » 27 Jul 2010 11:11

CakeStop wrote: It depends upon what you want from a GPS. Some units are sophisticated bike computers / training data recorders with decent navigation facilities. Others are sophisticated navigation devices with decent bike computer facilities. Mine is the latter type and it doesn't for example provide different records for different bikes.

And some are mobile telephones! Hands up, who goes riding without a mobile these days? I bought a posh one (HTC Touch Cruise 2.5 years a go) running Windows mobile (basically a mini computer c/w GPS) and 'converged', i.e. installed great software (Run.gps) and use it for navigation/recording and much more; Google maps for when you're REALLY lost in E. Europe, music, TomTom, video, camera (I have ALL of europe maps plus all my music plus much more on the 16 gig removal card), even making hands free telephone calls when its mounted on the bars which is kool. These days, you can even link up with bluetooth (wireless) HRM etc. Of course, its not a dedicated bicycle tool like the fantastic Garmins, but as I always ask people; does your garmin make telephone calls/pictures? Thats why you end up carrying loads of devices. Not unusual to see Gramin owners with a mobile and a camera.

But I confess that I am also concurrently using a old wireless Polar 625x on the road bike from my triathlon days which after 7 years proved totally bomb proof. But its pure duplication and could be got ride of if I could be bothered.

Philmondo · Post by **Philmondo** » 27 Jul 2010 13:22

However, I anticipate still wanting to be able to glance down and see basic stats such as speed and distance, without having to scroll through various settings.

George, I use my Garmin 605 for the purposes you have stated, and I find it does the job superbly. You can have the display set to speed/distance etc, and it automatically flashes up the map when an instruction is imminent, returning to your stats display when that instruction has been executed. Also, it has the capacity to record data separately for 3 bikes.

My original intention was to use the Garmin in conjunction with another computer, but I quickly decided I didn't need to bother. I now use only my Garmin and consider it to be the mutt's nuts

George · Post by **George** » 27 Jul 2010 13:31

CakeStop wrote:...providing you don't wish to use it for multi-day touring...

Can you elaborate on this, please, Steve? I would almost certainly sometimes want to use a GPS for a weekend away, and occasionally for a longer trip; my friend used his to navigate us round a small bit of France when we went to watch the Tour last year, and I'd want the option of doing that kind of thing.

George · Post by **George** » 27 Jul 2010 13:36

slogfester wrote:
CakeStop wrote: And some are mobile telephones! Hands up, who goes riding without a mobile these days? I bought a posh one (HTC Touch Cruise 2.5 years a go) ...
I was under the impression that most phone-with-GPS devices weren't quite so good at the GPS bit (e.g. relatively undetailed mapping software), and in some cases aren't even waterproof. I take it that that's not the case, then?

George · Post by **George** » 27 Jul 2010 13:37

Philmondo wrote:My original intention was to use the Garmin in conjunction with another computer, but I quickly decided I didn't need to bother. I now use only my Garmin and consider it to be the mutt's nuts

Thanks, Phil ... I shall investigate further.

Post by **CakeStop** » 27 Jul 2010 14:10

See the 2nd paragraph of my post - ref internal / replaceable batteries

George wrote:
CakeStop wrote:...providing you don't wish to use it for multi-day touring...
Can you elaborate on this, please, Steve? I would almost certainly sometimes want to use a GPS for a weekend away, and occasionally for a longer trip; my friend used his to navigate us round a small bit of France when we went to watch the Tour last year, and I'd want the option of doing that kind of thing.

Philmondo · Post by **Philmondo** » 27 Jul 2010 18:13

The Garmin battery lasts around 14-15 hours on a full charge. It can be charged from the mains, or via a USB connection.

George · Post by **George** » 28 Jul 2010 08:20

slogfester wrote:And some are mobile telephones! Hands up, who goes riding without a mobile these days? I bought a posh one (HTC Touch Cruise 2.5 years a go) ... Not unusual to see Gramin owners with a mobile and a camera.

From my experience of other multi-function devices (office machines, home video, 'ordinary' camera phones, etc), I feel there are often drawbacks, e.g.
- Quality/functionality/ease-of-use of individual functions tends to be inferior to dedicated devices
- You often pay for functionality you don't want/need
- One function will often fail before the others, leaving you with a choice between binning a device with 3 out of 4 functions still sound, and muddling along with a sub-functional multi-function device plus a separate device
- It's often convenient to have functions available on their own, e.g. let a child use your camera, without parting with your phone

Are these drawbacks valid where GPSs are concerned?

George · Post by **George** » 28 Jul 2010 08:24

Philmondo wrote:My original intention was to use the Garmin in conjunction with another computer, but I quickly decided I didn't need to bother.

Phil, another friend of mine told me that, unless you fit the optional computer-type sensor, the basic stats display can be a bit erratic -- not suitable, for example, for looking at during a TT. Do you use a computer-type sensor with yours?

Andy Terry · Post by **Andy Terry** » 28 Jul 2010 08:46

I've been cycling and walking with GPS at home and abroad since 2003.

Garmin eTrex Vista HCx (about £150 with a handlebar mount) plus Garmin City Navigator Europe mapping (about £60). AA batteries last about 15 hours. A general purpose GPS like this would fit your requirements perfectly.

Andy Terry · Post by **Andy Terry** » 28 Jul 2010 08:48

And this shows why GPS is not always reliable for recording distance

http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Cares-Gorge-walk

Andy Terry · Post by **Andy Terry** » 28 Jul 2010 08:50

Animal wrote:on my new bike I purchased last week

Have you got rid of the reflectors yet?

Post by **CakeStop** » 28 Jul 2010 10:29

Andy Terry wrote:And this shows why GPS is not always reliable for recording distance

http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Cares-Gorge-walk

Presumably the signal was bad due to the terrain resulting in the position fix wandering?

If I turn my GPS on inside my house (so a poor signal) I record a track without moving - taking me into other people's houses

and as far as the next road 50 meters away. As a few satellites are picked up through the windows the extent to which my indicated position wanders gradually reduces until I appear to be just wandering around my own house. In normal usage out on the road, providing you switch the unit on a few minutes before you need it distance recording seems to be accurate. If during a ride you switch it off for say 30 minutes for a cafe stop, when you turn it back on satellite acquisition only seems to take a couple of seconds.

Andy Terry wrote:AA batteries last about 15 hours.

I think that's about what I get out of rechargeable NiMHs which is what I use for general purposes. Lithium AA's (non-rechargeable) weigh next to nothing and last 40 hours but they cost more (about £3 for a pack of 2 I think) so I tend to reserve these for special occasions.

GrahamGamblin · Post by **GrahamGamblin** » 28 Jul 2010 10:32

I got a GPS a few weeks ago, and removed the computer to my commuting bike, as the GPS unit (Garmin Edge 705) has all the functions of the computer. It also has a backup wheel magnet and sensor so if you lose a satellite signal (e.g in a tunnel), speed and distance are still recorded.

The Cateye wireless computer it replaced has been very reliable. I presume you have replaced the battery in the transmitter unit? Another cause (I guess) could be the seal on the transmitter battery compartment perishing and allowing water in?

slogfester · Post by **slogfester** » 28 Jul 2010 12:12

George wrote: I was under the impression that most phone-with-GPS devices weren't quite so good at the GPS bit (e.g. relatively undetailed mapping software), and in some cases aren't even waterproof. I take it that that's not the case, then?

Some phone+GPS units are not so good, but the HTCs all seem to perform very well and they are getting better all the time. All GPSs (dedicated and non-dedicated) beneifit from being placed in a field and left alone for 5-10 mins in order to clear their memory/satellite cache. You will find that afterwards signial lock is much quicker after startup.

Mapping? On the contrary, maps available for pocket PCs are vastly superior. As well as having complete TomTom road maps, I can have alll google overlays (maps, sats, terrain etc), plus (pre-download) OSM, Opencyclemap, openpiste etc etc. Basically, you you can download any map overlay you want.

Yep, most are not waterproof (I believe now that the market is expanding rapidly, some are?), and there are many over-engineered cases for them, but I found a 5p zip bag works brilliantly! On the tourer I have the device mounted ( www.flickr.com/photos/26742494@N02/4836 ... 864761800/ ) and simply put a bag over the top and a elastic band around the bottom. 100% waterproof and still able to use the screen/keys. But my (older) divice is a touch screen. I'm not sure how the newer capacitive screens would fair with this? When on the road bike, I mostly have the phone in my back pocket (with earpiece if/when I need navigation instructions), which again can be placed in a zip bag.

slogfester · Post by **slogfester** » 28 Jul 2010 12:27

George wrote:Are these drawbacks valid where GPSs are concerned?

There are many compromises. Each individual function is invariably less powerful/easy to use than a dedicated unit. But there gap is narrowing (mobiles now have 5 mega cameras for example) and it just depends upon what you want. Plus, of course, with the intro of the Iphone (and Google's Android operating system), the multi-function units are getting significantly easier to use. MS's all new Win 7 for mobiles is being final beta tested now.

A few years a go, many wondered why they needed a camera in their mobile. Its now the same with GPS. Have no doubt though, it will soon be hard to buy a mobile without a GPS! Location based services (e.g. when/where is the next bus to Mecca from where I am standing now?) are THE next big thing coming our way.

The bluetooth chip on mine has gone. Like you say, I'm wondering when to ditch the whole unit. But my unit has lead a very hard life (whizzing around a motorcyle race track at 150 mph, 4 months touring E Europe, freezing and hot/humid trips, email/spreadsheet/document work horse), so I have no complaints.

George · Post by **George** » 28 Jul 2010 13:35

slogfester wrote:On the tourer I have the device mounted ( www.flickr.com/photos/26742494@N02/4836 ... 864761800/ )

Barry, I can't quite work out from the pic whether your device is on a dedicated bracket. I didn't realise you could get such things for smartphones; if it isn't a dedicated bracket, how is it mounted?

slogfester wrote: ... and simply put a bag over the top and a elastic band around the bottom. 100% waterproof and still able to use the screen/keys.

I use this solution for the ultra-cheap wired computer on my turbo (which otherwise stops working due to the contacts getting sweat-swamped), so agree that it is simple and effective ... but neither neat nor altogether convenient.

George · Post by **George** » 28 Jul 2010 13:39

Ah, I think I've just worked out the answer to my own question: is the HTC mounted on an adapted hands-free car kit?

slogfester · Post by **slogfester** » 28 Jul 2010 14:21

mount is excellent Herbert Richter (see eg www.htcdirect.co.uk/index.php?main_page ... =2_4_68_69 ) with bike mount. never lost the PDA despite rapid touring descents and using bike for MTB. I actualy use the PDA's wrist strap as a safety anchor, but have never needed it.

Philmondo · Post by **Philmondo** » 28 Jul 2010 19:01

George, I don't use a computer type sensor with my unit (I don't think it's an option with the 605). I haven't had any problems with an erratic readout either though.

George · Post by **George** » 28 Jul 2010 19:33

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Outcome:
I've followed Phil and ordered a Garmin 605. (705 seems like a lot of extra money for features I'll probably never use.) If it's delivered on time, I can have a good play while on holiday next week. I anticipate it will replace the Cateyes on my everyday bikes. So, unlike Barry, I shall still be using a steam-powered phone for the two mobile calls I make in the average month, but I won't ever have to curse myself for foolishly leaving the house without a plastic bag and a rubber band.
I shall continue with a traditional computer on my TT bike, though. I've forked out £50 on a Mavic computer with skewer-mounted transmitter for that machine, since I don't anticipate needing directions while racing (unlike certain others who shall remain nameless ... and not only because I so rarely get into competitive action) and it's smaller, lighter and neater than a GPS, includes a stopwatch (unlike 605) and won't go off under flyovers.