GPS? - HELP!!!!!

Kermit · Post by **Kermit** » 22 Jan 2011 08:56

Well I never thought I'd be saying this but I think I'm ready to go to techno hell and buy a gps. The reason? Deb and I are doing a short euro tour in April and I really don't want the hassle of carrying loads of maps etc. But the question is, which way to go? (pardon the pun) Garmin seems to be the obvious choice and I realise that you need to buy separate mapping but which model? When searching on various shopping sites it seems that there are various 705 Edge models with prices dependant on year of manufacture. the 2008 model for example is on Amazon for well under £300 and Chain Reaction have the 605 with Street Navigator maps for about the same price. At the other end of the scale the 800 has touch screen and I use full finger gloves a lot so would that be worth the extra expense. If I'm going to buy one I am quite interested in having all the training add-ons hrm, etc. Finally we would also like to use it for walking if possible. Sorry, I've gone on a bit haven't I?

Help!
Worried Brown Eyes

Post by **CakeStop** » 22 Jan 2011 09:14

I knew we'd get you in the end! If you need another excuse, one will be essential for a certain overnight event where reading a route sheet may be tricky (you can set them to light up just before junctions).

As you know, I went for the cheaper type aimed more at navigation than training and use free open source maps. I'm not sure but I think the more expensive types that are aimed at training are supplied with nice maps (but you'll need to make sure you've got European coverage). Just check that the battery life is sufficient for what you have in mind and, more especially for a multiday tour, that you will have a means of charging one with an internal battery (as opposed to replaceable AA's).

Whatever you get, do so soon so you plenty of time to get the hang of using it on club runs etc before you actually need to know where you're going

Post by **CakeStop** » 22 Jan 2011 09:18

Oh, yes this is useful....

http://www.aukadia.net/gps/index.htm

IIRC the author tried a touchscreen model at some stage and found it to be tricky to use.

Andy Terry · Post by **Andy Terry** » 22 Jan 2011 11:05

As usual on these occasions I'll plug the Garmin eTrex Vista HCx plus Garmin City Navigator Europe NT maps. About £250 all-in including handlebar mount.

AlanW · Post by **AlanW** » 22 Jan 2011 12:42

Andy Terry wrote:As usual on these occasions I'll plug the Garmin eTrex Vista HCx plus Garmin City Navigator Europe NT maps. About £250 all-in including handlebar mount.

What Andy said, fine choice and will do everything that you require plus much much more.

Andy Terry · Post by **Andy Terry** » 22 Jan 2011 13:14

AlanW wrote: will do everything that you require plus much much more.

but not the 'training' stuff

AA batteries last more than a full day (e.g. a 200 audax), which is all I need.

George · Post by **George** » 22 Jan 2011 16:05

I can't comment on the merits of one model as compared with another, because I'm only familiar with one: the Garmin 605. I can say a little about the things I do/don't like about the 605, though.

1) It is great so long as I stick to using it just like an ordinary bike computer (just displaying stats about my ride and making them available to me afterwards) or if I simply display a route as a trace on the map and follow it by observing the direction taken by the line (the 'Training' | 'Courses' menu).
2) It is not so great when it comes to the 'Navigate' features (i.e. getting it to give me directions, "turn right in 200m" etc).
- First, it can take ages to work out the directions for a route, even if the route is only, say 50-60km. By ages, I mean maybe 10 minutes. By contrast, the unit in my wife's car (a TomTom), which was about 40% of the price, can do a similar processing job in less than half a minute.
- Second, the 'Recalculate' options are not really what I want: you can tell it to do one of two things if you go off course when 'Navigating': a) nothing (except tell you you're off course); b) recalculate. Trouble with b) is i. it takes ages (see above) and ii. it calculates a totally new route to your final destination, ignoring your original intentions. What I'd like it to do is tell me how to get back onto the route I was trying to follow.
- Third, occasionally, when navigating, it will "get its knickers in a twist", i.e. start showing nonsensical distance to go; show a broken trace on the map; be unable to refresh the display fast enough to keep up with progress; etc ... until reset.
I suspect that this happens when a route that I have downloaded (e.g. a route provided by an event organiser) is regarded by the unit as impossible: e.g. goes over footbridge, goes off road. However, it has happened at least once when I could find no such obvious explanation. Besides, even if the file is flawed, I feel the unit ought to be able to work around this, if only by recognising when I'm back on the planned route and continuing directions from there ... which it doesn't seem able to do. It reminds me of an older-generation PC running a program with a bug in it: it just 'hangs' and the only solution is to reset.

One feature that I'd ideally like on a computer: it would be great if it could tell you about the profile of the road ahead, as opposed to just the road behind.

Kermit · Post by **Kermit** » 22 Jan 2011 17:12

Thanks for the advice guys. I've plumped for the etrex as recommended and got it for £144 at Handtec. Think I'll wait till I receive it before I order any mapping but I would be interested to know what you think about buying it on a card v downloading.

I have to say I was getting quite excited about the prospect of finding my way round Europe with this magic device. Like a kid at Christmas. That is until I read your last post George, and now I remember why I've resisted for so long

Perhaps I will be fortunate and not have any problems at all.

AlanW · Post by **AlanW** » 22 Jan 2011 17:50

Kermit wrote:Thanks for the advice guys. I've plumped for the etrex as recommended and got it for £144 at Handtec. Think I'll wait till I receive it before I order any mapping but I would be interested to know what you think about buying it on a card v downloading.

I have to say I was getting quite excited about the prospect of finding my way round Europe with this magic device. Like a kid at Christmas. That is until I read your last post George, and now I remember why I've resisted for so long

Perhaps I will be fortunate and not have any problems at all.

Personally I would recommend buying the actually Mapsource discs over the downloads or pre saved on memory cards.

Get the largest size memory card as well, I thinks its a 4GB? You will then be able to save the whole of the UK at street level detail on it. Then get a spare 4GB card for any over seas trips and save those maps on that one.

Yes it is more expensive, but it means that you load the mapping software on to your PC or laptop then create and save routes at your leisure. Then just download to the e-Trex, and that's when the fun begins!!! Its a nightmare, saving routes as tracks, reducing this to suit that, changing formats....you'll have hours of "fun".

Roobay · Post by **Roobay** » 22 Jan 2011 18:07

i have a 800 works great with gloves on!

Kermit · Post by **Kermit** » 22 Jan 2011 19:04

Thanks Alan, that sounds like a good idea.

AlanW · Post by **AlanW** » 22 Jan 2011 19:38

Kermit wrote:Thanks Alan, that sounds like a good idea.

Plus, lets say that you do a overseas trip, you plot the route on your PC and save it. Mapsource will advise you which maps you require either side of your route that you need to save in order to complete it.

The plus side to doing this is that you only save the maps that you require, thus saving space on your memory card.

However, the down side is that if you happen to go out of one the mapping regions that you have saved then you are back to just the base map on the unit. This only features main roads really and is just about good enough for very basic navigation,

This is why it pays to look at the route in detail and then look at the suggested maps to save. They are easy to identify because they change a different colour (for identification purposes only). It could be that your route just happens to pass very close to the edge of one of the maps, so you may want to add the next map adjacent to it.

Sounds very complicated I know, but its easy enough to understand and will make more sense once you start playing around with it.

Post by **CakeStop** » 22 Jan 2011 19:39

"Mapsource" comes free with the Garmin, it's basic mapping software that you have on your PC, it also transfers data between the PC & Garmin. The maps you can pay for are called things like "City Navigator" but if you decide to buy, Alan's right about the CD being better than the memory card version.

You also get a free base map for the Garmin but it's trunk roads only so useless.

Paul, before you buy any maps, I'll show you the free open source maps - I find them more than adequate for preplanned routes.

You can also replace the basic map on Mapsource with the OSM map (as well as using OSM on the Garmin). OSM covers the whole world but some remote locations may not have all roads. It's being updated all the time but if relying on it overseas it would be best to have a quick look to see what the coverage is like where you're going.

I plan my routes on bikehike.co.uk, save them to my PC, open them in Mapsource, do one very specific tweek in mapsource if it's for an audax and then transfer it to the Garmin. You don't have to use Mapsource at all, you can transfer straight from web site mapping to the Garmin or you can use other freely available software but Mapsource (updated to use OSM maps) works form me.

As Alan says, a blank 4GB microSD card is well worthwhile.

I've got a set of step by step instructions for planning & using routes somewhere that I'll dig out for you. I'd strongly suggest you follow Francis Cooke's article on how best to set up the Etrex for audax purposes - there are many many options you can choose and the one's suggested by Francis are the best ones for using it the way I use mine - much better than figuring it out by trial and error.

One final tip for now, 2 or 3 small strips of insulating tape in the handlebar bracket are a good idea to stop it rattling.

George - have you updated your firmware via the Garmin site? I understand that the latest updates include some navigation logic fixes.

I personally don't use the "take me to xxxx" features - I just use mine for pre-planned routes in "off-road" mode (this sounds strange but is quite important). For this purpose the navigation is as faultless as my preplanned route. I did use the unplanned on-board navigation to get me from Ledbury to Malvern when a train was cancelled and it got me there although I ignored a couple of suggested turns that I didn't like the look of.

AlanW · Post by **AlanW** » 22 Jan 2011 19:50

Handle Bar Mounts, you might find this interesting, especially post number 27 and 30.

AlanW · Post by **AlanW** » 22 Jan 2011 19:57

All you need to know....

Andy Terry · Post by **Andy Terry** » 22 Jan 2011 20:01

Good choice, Paul.

Get the mapping on DVD, not card or download. City Navigator Europe NT which I have used in Spain and Italy.

You can plan routes on RideWithGPS.com (other sites are available), export as GPX then transfer onto the Garmin.

Like Steve, I never use the 'satnav' navigation features (waste of time) - just my own route in 'off road' mode.

Kermit · Post by **Kermit** » 22 Jan 2011 21:17

So much advice! All sounds v exciting if a bit scary. Can't say I've understood more than 10% of all the techno speak but as soon as my little box arrives I shall be round all of your houses like a shot with a translator in tow. Assuming I can find my way. Thanks again.

George · Post by **George** » 22 Jan 2011 23:44

CakeStop wrote:George - have you updated your firmware via the Garmin site? I understand that the latest updates include some navigation logic fixes.

I did that a month or two after purchasing the unit, but haven't repeated the process recently. I'll give it a try

CakeStop wrote:I personally don't use the "take me to xxxx" features - I just use mine for pre-planned routes in "off-road" mode (this sounds strange but is quite important).

Apart from an experiment to see how it worked, I haven't used mine in the "take me to xxxx" mode either. I'm talking about using a GPX downloaded from an organiser's site, or a GPX of a route that I've planned on BikeHike, with the menu options "Where To | Saved Rides | <selection>". I've tried it in both Follow Road and Off Road mode. When I did the ToB sportive, for example, the organiser provided a GPX that I lazily didn't inspect closely before use. It turned out to only very crudely follow the actual line of the road -- when you zoomed in (I found out later) you could see it was cutting across country at all sorts of places. When in Follow Road mode, the Garmin got totally confused and couldn't give me "turn left" type instructions with any reliability at all. In Off Road mode, I was constantly getting instructions like "Leave B1234 and proceed NE". I suppose you can't really say that that is a flaw in the device (it was the crappy GPX that was to blame), but it was a frustrating business, and I sort of feel that a cleverer device would have a way of coping. It once got into a similar tizzy with a route I had planned myself on BikeHike, and I'm pretty sure had no such flaws, and once in Holland when I used a route with a pathway linking two bits of road. Possibly I had it in Follow Road modes both of those times, though (can't remember), and maybe if it had been in Off Road mode, there wouldn't have been a problem. Certainly the vast majority of rides I did the navigate function was fine, but the handful of times it wasn't were a pain.

Dave Cox · Post by **Dave Cox** » 23 Jan 2011 06:50

Have a look in for sale! I've been to busy to really get to grips with mine mainly at the interface with the computer. A car like model suits me better. I suspect its a generational thing. When I was in my prime Oscar was churning out my club run lists on a roneo!

Post by **CakeStop** » 23 Jan 2011 09:07

I'm not sure what's wrong George. If you're following a route instead of using autorouting the only instructions you should get are the ones within the route waypoints. As you've probably guessed using off-road is to prevent the unit getting confused when the plotted line diverges from the road.

Once the original set-up is done you should never have to fiddle about with settings on the Garmin, the only thing I do before I set off is switch it on, reset data (ie zero distance etc), select the route and click "off-road".

If you want to try the way I do it see http://www.beaconrcc.org.uk/audax/expre ... p_2011.gdb Upload one route, three tracks and all waypoints to your Garmin, make sure all 3 tracks are set to display and follow the route in "off-road" mode. Ideally, set map to display "Next" and "Dist to Next". This should give you a light blue line that follows the road, a pink line between turns and approx 35m before each turn you should get a beep, if you have sound on, and an abbreviated instruction as well as showing the next instruction and how far until the next turn.

I normally only do the instructions like this for an audax (to replicate the routesheet) not really necessary but it's the way I like to do it. If I'm just trying to follow a route of my own creation, I'll just click at junctions with bikehike's follow-road off and follow as a route or follow a track or a combination of both. One other option is to have bikehike's follow road on when creating the track but filter to <250 coursepoints before downloading as a route in which case you get a line that roughly follows the road and the unit lights up at every coursepoint (in this case I turn the sound off so it's not annoying).

George · Post by **George** » 23 Jan 2011 18:01

Steve, I'm increasingly sure that the unit is playing up. Today, I used it for a tandem ride with Roger. Before starting the outward leg, I tried to load our route using the Training | Courses | <selection> approach. I select the planned route, unit says "Loading" (or whatever), progress bar moves swiftly to 90%, then stops. After several minutes, bar is still showing 90%, so I reset the unit. I then followed same procedure a second time: all hunky dory. Before coming back, I went to load the return route in the same way; I start scrolling down the list of stored 'Courses', get half way down the list, and it freezes ... I can't go up or down the list or cancel the selection process. Again, I reset the unit and the second time round, all was well.

I've been having 'niggling', isolated problems like this all along. But they are totally random: it doesn't consistently do any one thing wrong. So each time something funny happens I start questioning myself and wondering whether I've absent-mindedly done something daft. For example, there was the time a couple of months ago, when it just seemed to stop recording. I had absolutely no recollection of going near the Stop button. But could I be absolutely 100% sure that I hadn't somehow pressed it by accident? No. So I wait to see whether it'll do it again, and it doesn't. It just does something else inexplicable, like the things today.

I'm now going to try updating the firmware as suggested, and if that doesn't put a stop to these issues, I'm going to contact their technical support.

Out of interest, can any other users of the same unit tell me: if you go through the procedure Where To | Saved Routes | <selection>, the unit will say "Calculating". How long would you expect it to go on "Calculating", if you'd asked it to take you along an "average" 50km ride?

George · Post by **George** » 23 Jan 2011 18:19

CakeStop wrote:the only thing I do before I set off is switch it on, reset data (ie zero distance etc), select the route and click "off-road".

Steve, do we have the same unit? These options don't ring a bell with me at all. What set of menu options, exactly, do you select t do this?

Post by **CakeStop** » 23 Jan 2011 19:21

No George, mine's the etrex vista hcx. Really I was just trying to illustrate the fact that I don't need to change settings much so there's not much I can do wrong. On mine, you can select which of the many available pages you want to appear on screen without having to navigate to them via the menu. I have 5 key pages selected to display in the sequence I need and I simply toggle between them by pressing a button on the right. My unit starts up with the data page (odometer etc) so if I want I can hit the reset button to zero the things that need zeroing. Next comes the barometer page in case I want to callibrate before I ride but normally I'll just toggle past this page. Next comes the tracks page where I'd pick the track I want to follow and check it's ticked to be displayed (normally I just toggle through this page because there will only be a few tracks and all will be displayed. Next comes the route page and if I want to follow a route I'll select it. Next comes the map page and when I get to that I start riding and once I'm riding I won't press another button apart from maybe zooming in or out on the map.

I don't use my Garmin often, I'm not using it as a computer replacement so I only take it out when I need it to follow a route. As such the way I use it is fairly simple but it just seems to work. The more complex bit for me is creating the route/track in advance on the PC. It took me a while to find 2 or 3 procedures to follow depending upon what I want to achieve but now I stick to those it's fairly trouble free. It takes a bit of time but I only do it for "special" rides and I've always enjoyed planning routes to ride whatever the media used - it takes no longer than plotting the route on a map which is something I always did prior to riding an audax and I find it so much easier to follow the garmin than a routesheet it's worth the time investment.

George · Post by **George** » 23 Jan 2011 19:56

OK, thanks, Steve.

I've updated the firmware, so we'll see whether that makes any difference. I've also decided to stop using my synchroniser program to keep 'courses' on the Garmin and the PC synchronised (just in case the synchroniser's log files might affect something; can't see why, but who knows). So we'll see whether these random but persistent minor malfunctions stop.

Have any other Garmin users experienced the kind of 'freezing' phenomena I had today?

Kermit · Post by **Kermit** » 30 Jan 2011 20:34

Well my Etrex Vista arrived a few days ago. What excitement! Have set it up per Mr Cooke's instructions (well, 90% anyway, got a bit confused at the end) and ordered the Europe City Navigator dvd map. I will bring it all to Brecon and hope that messrs Smith & Terry may provide some instruction on the finer points of GPX operation, who will of course be remunerated with fine ale.