11 into 10 or 10 into 11!!!

Jdebuse · Post by **Jdebuse** » 16 Sep 2014 22:22

Right then folks. I'll be upgrading to 105 10 speed soon. My question is. Can I use the new gucci looking 11 speed crankset with 10 speed components??

jdtate101 · Post by **jdtate101** » 17 Sep 2014 08:53

Yes. There's nothing to stop you using the 11-speed cranks, but you will need to continue to use the 10-speed mechs and shifters.

Jdebuse · Post by **Jdebuse** » 17 Sep 2014 13:42

Cheers James. I looked on the chain reaction q and a section regarding the use of the 11 speed with 10 speed components. They are pretty much saying NO.

petemarshall · Post by **petemarshall** » 17 Sep 2014 15:25

The manufacturers and retailers always claim you can't use 8 with 9 or 9 with 10 or whatever....
No idea if there are any actual changes between 10 and 11 other than the sti changers, but in the case of all previous iterations everything works OK, other than using the wrong chain with the cassette (it will be noisy if you use the wrong chain, but still work), as long as you use a 10 speed chain with a 10 speed cassette and a 10 speed sti lever the rest of the system can be 8, 9 or 10 including the sprockets on the crank and all will work with Shimano 105 through to Dura Ace. Although the front changes are much smoother with either the 9 or 10 speed sprockets (they are identical, the eight speed sprockets have different indents to aid shifting) and this is only really important when using a triple set up on the front.
I am told that the wear rates of 10 speed chains on nine speed sprockets is worse, but I cannot see why this should be as they are identical....
As I say I have never used 11 speed and maybe they have actually changed something important, but the cynic in me doubts it very much.
I have two front 105 changers in the shed, absolutely identical in every way, other than one has an "8 speed special" sticker on it. This was from the days when eight speed was a new thing. The one without the sticker was sold as a nine speed!

Jdebuse · Post by **Jdebuse** » 17 Sep 2014 16:42

Cheers Pete. I've pulled the trigger on the 11 speed chainset. Got it from chain reaction. £80 including postage (1-2 days). I did go on a live chat thingy with wiggle about it but I waited more than ten minutes without a reply

Thanks again folks.

petemarshall · Post by **petemarshall** » 17 Sep 2014 17:52

If you got through what do you think the chances of some one on minimum wage reading an on line script knowing the answer?
If you Google Shimano tech docs,
http://si.shimano.com/#
you can access all the information that you (or Wiggle)need provided by Shimano. Although nothing in the tech docs is actually in accurate, it still isn't the full story on what works with what as there are many work arounds.
The best source of info on line is usually Sheldon Brown's site,
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/
since he sadly died some years ago it is no longer as up to date as once it was so 11 speed stuff may not be covered. He was the guru of bodging.

AlanW · Post by **AlanW** » 17 Sep 2014 18:38

petemarshall wrote: I am told that the wear rates of 10 speed chains on nine speed sprockets is worse, but I cannot see why this should be as they are identical....

External width

The external width matters for derailleur-equipped bikes because rear cogs are spaced close enough together such that a chain that's too wide will rub on adjacent cogs.

So, the width of chain required basically depends on the number of cogs (speeds) in back, since clusters with more speeds have their cogs spaced closer together.

In general, drivetrains up to and including 8 speeds can use the same speed chain. The packaging/marketing chains often don't mention that they work with 5, 6, 7, or 8-speed bikes -- but if it mentions compatibility with any of these speeds, then it is compatible with all. The pin width of these chains is usually 7.1 or 7.2mm.

9-speed drivetrains use chains up to 6.8mm wide. These are typically explicitly marketed as 9-speed chains.

10-speed drivetrains use chains up to 6.2mm or so wide. Again, these are marketed as 10-speed chains.

It is usually possible to use a narrower chain on a fewer-speeds drivetrain, but beware of narrow 9-speed and above chains with old chainsets as the chain may drop between the rings when changing down to the inner ring. There's no significant benefit to doing so though since 9- and 10-speed chains are more expensive.

petemarshall · Post by **petemarshall** » 17 Sep 2014 23:02

My point was about the claim that sprocket wear is effected by the different chain widths, a claim I do not understand as sprockets do not vary, certainly not between what are described as 8, 9 or 10 speed sprockets. I know that the cassette cogs vary, which is why using an nine speed chain on an 8 speed cassette will make a noise and cause possible skipping and wear, this is not the the case with sprockets.

The only changes I have seen in sprocket design from shimano is the differing pin and indents that do aid shifting on the front, but has little effect on double sprockets, whilst having a marked effect on the smoothness of changing on triples.

A Dura Ace front changer, with a Dura Ace shifter, used with a none shimano compact double (that has no pins or indents on either sprocket) that is now nearly twenty years old give the smoothest change on both front and rear of any of my set ups......

Personally I use none shimano sprockets on two bikes, one with a triple and one with a double, whilst having shimano sprockets on my other triple. All are used with 9 speed cassettes and 9 speed chains. The front changers are a mix of those described as 8 speed, 9 speed and 10 speed. All work fine, but the shimano 10 speed triple set up has a smother shifting than the none shimano 6 speed triple sprockets from the real old days (no pins or indents) used with an 8 speed front changer (marginal but noticeable). The wear rates on the chain seem unaffected.

I have not used an 11 speed system, but would expect that any changes to the sprockets are only those made to make even smother changing and the sprocket sizes and spacing remain the same as they have since the introduction of 8 speed (or even earlier) rear cassettes.

Indeed I have made use of a double chainset with the inner removed for a single speed on occasions, using a 1/8 chain without any serious problems, although the wear rate on the chain is then marked over using an appropriate track or bmx style sproket

I would say the major thing affecting the wear rate of a chain is failing to clean and oil appropriate rather than using the "wrong" sprockets. The manufacturers obviously have an interest in encouraging the replacement of the full groupset on a regular basis whenever they introduce the latest "must have" gizmo. I am all for this as it means lots of good stuff sold second hand. So if you are thinking of upgrading to 11 or no doubt 12 speed soon, or having disc brakes, then please replace everything and let me know. I am always in the market for decent second had Ultegra and Dura Ace chainsets, brakes, hubs etc.....

Better still, why not go electric and sell me the whole groupset

Post by **CakeStop** » 18 Sep 2014 19:06

I've always thought cassette 'cogs' on the back are sprockets and the big cogs on the front are 'chain wheels'.

Jdebuse · Post by **Jdebuse** » 19 Sep 2014 20:07

Thank you for your wisdom gentlemen.

petemarshall · Post by **petemarshall** » 20 Sep 2014 10:51

CakeStop wrote:I've always thought cassette 'cogs' on the back are sprockets and the big cogs on the front are 'chain wheels'.

Cogs on the back, sprockets on the front I was always told. Any mechanical engineers?

I would guess that the usage is purely colloquial as cogs and sprockets are just different words for the same thing, but tradition usually uses sprocket for the front cogs only. As in the small sprocket to the big cog (my usual gear)

AlanW · Post by **AlanW** » 20 Sep 2014 12:08

To be honest I have always referred to both front and rear as sprockets?

HERE

HERE

petemarshall · Post by **petemarshall** » 20 Sep 2014 14:46

I think it may be safer just to point....

Grogz · Post by **Grogz** » 21 Sep 2014 22:45

Cassette 'sprockets'; 'chainrings' on the front are attached to the chainset/crankset.

To add to the debate, chainrings are the area where there is most flexibility to mix. As groupsets are changing, cable pull rates on the front and rear mechs alters, sprocket widths change as do chains and chain lines: it all becomes more complicated!

listensqueak · Post by **listensqueak** » 22 Sep 2014 21:01

If it helps, a sprocket is independent and a cog is a part of a set of gears. Cogs are usually meshed with other gears to transfer drive and a sprocket is a means of transferring drive by means of a chain or a belt, similar to a pulley. The chainrings at the front and the cassette at the rear would both be classed as sprockets as technically they do not mesh with other gears.

AlanW · Post by **AlanW** » 23 Sep 2014 05:49

listensqueak wrote:If it helps, a sprocket is independent and a cog is a part of a set of gears. Cogs are usually meshed with other gears to transfer drive and a sprocket is a means of transferring drive by means of a chain or a belt, similar to a pulley. The chainrings at the front and the cassette at the rear would both be classed as sprockets as technically they do not mesh with other gears.

I rest my case your honour.