Factory built wheels - wear rate

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AlanW
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Factory built wheels - wear rate

Post by AlanW » 21 Feb 2016 09:11

In the past I have always used handbuilt wheels during the winter months. But no idea why but on November 2nd last year I fitted a pair of Shimano RS610 factory built 11sp wheels.

Ive just checked and the rear one and it has a 1.5mm bow in the braking surface. :shock: And furthermore, looking at the front wheel no sign of the wear indicator marks either?

So in just three months both wheels are shot and it is not possible to buy replacement rims, and even if it was Im sure the cost to replace them would be more than a new set of wheels. So its back to a decent pair of handbuilts it is then.

Plus my last two 11sp chains have only lasted six weeks each....its a dear game this cycling lark!!!
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Post by GaryK » 21 Feb 2016 12:00

Alan there are wear indicators on mine, they look like a small drill hole. I guess when you can't see them anymore it's time to renew ? (they are tiny, put your glasses on)
Surprised at the wear rate, i know mine are worn but they have done 3800 miles on my summer bike and approx 1000 miles on my winter bike and there's still some life left in them.
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Post by AlanW » 21 Feb 2016 12:22

GaryK wrote:Alan there are wear indicators on mine, they look like a small drill hole. I guess when you can't see them anymore it's time to renew ? (they are tiny, put your glasses on)
Surprised at the wear rate, i know mine are worn but they have done 3800 miles on my summer bike and approx 1000 miles on my winter bike and there's still some life left in them.
They are long gone Gaz, even with my glasses on!

l removed the rear tyre and put a vernier across the braking surface and it has a hollow 1.5mm deep in the centre. The front wheel isn't quite as bad but nevertheless the wear indicators are also gone :cry:

I guesstimate in the region of 4000 miles, I could probably be more exact but is it worth it, they are still knackered regardless
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Post by CakeStop » 21 Feb 2016 16:18

Time to change to disc brakes?

I'll get my coat then :twisted:
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Post by AlanW » 21 Feb 2016 17:38

CakeStop wrote:Time to change to disc brakes?

I'll get my coat then :twisted:
Already on the case, looking at a 953 Rourkie disc frame set, but no one dare mention it to Lucy at the bunk house next weekend..... :wink:
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Post by Patch » 22 Feb 2016 16:15

Grails on Hope dong dong
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Post by AlanW » 22 Feb 2016 17:20

Patch wrote:Grails on Hope dong dong
Interesting, never looked at those rims before
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Post by Patch » 22 Feb 2016 19:03

Tubeless look good work well. You would you would. Martin Mcgowan has a pair.
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Post by Patch » 22 Feb 2016 19:08

Just as a note. I think 4000 miles for a pair of rims isn't that bad. How old they are is a bit irrelevant really. If you did 4000 miles in a week they would still be worn out. Also disc pads don't last long you will get through quite a few pairs of these in 4000 miles. So its not all win win. You don't get that horrible black sludge all over the frame as your rims wear away though.
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Post by AlanW » 22 Feb 2016 19:45

Hmmmmm......having once been a fan of tubeless until I was left stranded due to a major cut in the tyre, I'm not quite so keen to go back down the same route to be honest.

Plus the whole intial setting up and then keeping a check on the level of sealant coupled with the above incident was for me the straw that broke the camels back for me.

That said, I still maintain that tubeless on the mtb was one of the best things I ever did.
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Post by Patch » 22 Feb 2016 20:24

Tyres are getting much better though Alan. If you had got a major cut in a normal tyre you would have changed the tube tried to patch up the hole and limped home. With tubeless if the hole was too big to seal then you'd just use a tube and do the same thing. Ive had a couple of big **flat**s on mtb which I didn't think would seal and they did. You only have to check the sealant twice a year. I'm converted. 25 or 28mm Schwalbe Pro Ones. The way to go. Oh and wide rims none of those old 20mm jobs.
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Post by dweben » 22 Feb 2016 21:22

Several sets of disc pads in 4000 miles? Surely longer than that... on my old commuter I never changed them in 3 years + LEJOG, and transferred to my current Boardman. They've got about 9000-10000 miles on them.

Are yours made from chalk ???

Having said that... they can burn out in 20 miles on a MTB if you don't bed them in properly then go out in sandy terrain. :P

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Post by martin mc » 22 Feb 2016 22:01

The Stans Grail with Hope hubs are lovely. I've got tubeless 30mm CX tyres on them, not tried road tubeless yet but tempted to try some in near future on roadbike - got some shimano tubeless compatible wheels.

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Post by AlanW » 22 Feb 2016 22:06

Yes, in theory I agree that in the event of a catastrophic failure all you need to do is 'simply put a tube in'. However, I can speak from personal experiance it is much easier said than done.

HERE

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Post by Patch » 23 Feb 2016 08:13

I'll agree Alan they are a bit messy. I'll let you know if I have a similar catastrophe lol.
Paul it's not my pads I'm commenting on just my experience of customers bikes of which there are a lot. In fact if your using Avids I'd be surprised if the brakes themselves lasted 4000 miles lol.
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Post by George » 23 Feb 2016 09:33

Why ever should it make any difference to the wear rate of the rim whether the wheels are hand-built or factory-built? Surely the life of the rim is a product of the thickness and hardness of the metal, not the assembly method?

For >20 years, I built my own wheels. The ones I used in winter only ever had cheap rims on. About 10 years ago, I started using factory-built wheels (pressure of time, lure of deep rims, etc). The ones I use in winter are cheap Campag Khamsins. I've never noticed that they wear out faster or slower than the wheels I used to build myself. For me, front wheels last almost for ever (whether factory or hand made... I have a couple that are >30 years old) and rear wheels do several winters (=? 5k-10k miles). Usually the hub bearing is running rough before the rim has worn below the wear indicator.

Perhaps I ride too slowly to need to do much braking.

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Post by Philip Whiteman » 23 Feb 2016 09:39

A simple question from a simple person: What is the minimum thickness for a rim?

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Post by Patch » 23 Feb 2016 14:01

I have the definitive on tubeless now. Just had a regular customer with Hutchinson Sector 28mm tubeless. Big hole so had fixed it with tube. So I took tuber out and replaced sealant (Stans) Hole was about 1mm,. It would seal this hole up to 70psi beyond that wouldnt do it. So there you go. You are right Alan.
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Post by AlanW » 23 Feb 2016 14:32

George wrote:Why ever should it make any difference to the wear rate of the rim whether the wheels are hand-built or factory-built?
It doesn't make any differance to the wear rate, but it is not cost effective to even consider replacing a rim on a factory built wheel. Where as with hand built wheels it is.

So for example, the cost of a pair of RS610 wheels is £180, the cost of a replacement rim is £80 plus the labour cost to swap the rims over (unless you do if yourself of course) so roughly £100 in total.

On the flip side, the cost to replace a Open Sport rim on a handbuilt wheel including labour is £40
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Post by AlanW » 23 Feb 2016 14:34

Philip Whiteman wrote:A simple question from a simple person: What is the minimum thickness for a rim?
From what I have gathered I believe it is around 1mm?
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Post by laurence_cooley » 23 Feb 2016 15:59

Philip Whiteman wrote:A simple question from a simple person: What is the minimum thickness for a rim?
Jobst Brandt reckoned 0.5 mm: http://yarchive.net/bike/rim_wear.html. Depends on how brave you feel though, I guess!

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Post by George » 23 Feb 2016 20:41

AlanW wrote:It doesn't make any differance to the wear rate, but it is not cost effective to even consider replacing a rim on a factory built wheel. Where as with hand built wheels it is.
Oh, right. Well, I suppose the following is an example of modern throwaway living, which I don't specially like advocating, but nowadays I buy a set of Khamsins for >£100, run them for maybe 3-4 years, by which time the bearings are getting rough and the rear rim is scoured, at which point I bin them and start again. During the period of their use, they require literally zero maintenance, and when they are shot you just pull a new pair out of the box and away you go. Previously, I would have been tweaking the tension on my hand-built wheels a couple of times a year to keep them true, and when the time came for a rebuild, I would have devoted a large part of a weekend to it and still spent at least half the price of a pair of Khamsins.

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Post by martin mc » 23 Feb 2016 21:26

Patch wrote:I have the definitive on tubeless now. Just had a regular customer with Hutchinson Sector 28mm tubeless. Big hole so had fixed it with tube. So I took tuber out and replaced sealant (Stans) Hole was about 1mm,. It would seal this hole up to 70psi beyond that wouldnt do it. So there you go. You are right Alan.
So assuming 70psi is enough to get you home can you then patch the inside of tyre so you can continue to run same tyre tubeless (assuming hole not so big as to write it off)?

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Post by AlanW » 23 Feb 2016 22:38

Sounds easy doesn't it Mart?

But remember before you can remove the tyre you have to remove what liquid sealant is remaining.

Then before you can stick any sort of patch on the inside of the tyre you then have to remove the old solidified sealant. See picture in my other thread.

Bearing in mind that if you only remove a small section so that you can apply a patch the tyre will be out of balance due to the remaining solidified sealant.

So its best practise to scrap it all off and start again. Now we have the issue of sticking a patch on the inside, I tried a number of differant patches and on each occassions the Stans No Tubes attacked the glue causing it to come unstuck.

It's all a very messy process, been there done that on a number of occassions sadly.

Another point to consider and it has already been mentioned, you do need to monitor how much sealant remains fuild in the tyre and Stan's suggest checking the level between every 2 and 6 months. Last summer during one of the warmed spells, the sealant in mine lasted less than two months before it had dried out completely. So do you then add another 2oz on top of the dried out 2oz adding more weight or remove the tyre and scrap the old stuff out first?
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Post by AlanW » 23 Feb 2016 22:50

This all sounds very negative doesn't it, sorry.

If you can put up with intial faff in setting it all up, then be prepared to monitor the levels and the associated mess in the process then tubeless is great. Still not convinced about the event of catrosphic failures though?

Its fair to add that l did over 6000 miles and never had any problems, other than at the very end and sadly that's the bit that has haunted me ever since!!
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Post by Andy Terry » 23 Feb 2016 23:23

Maybe technology will evolve to the point where sealant isn't needed - as in car tyres. Until then, I think I'll stick with tubes.

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Post by AlanW » 24 Feb 2016 06:40

Andy Terry wrote:Maybe technology will evolve to the point where sealant isn't needed - as in car tyres. Until then, I think I'll stick with tubes.
I did actually try one wheel without any sealant but I just couldn't get the tyre to seal on the the rim with any success at all. I got it to seat ok, but the pressure loss over 24 hours was so great it wasn't worth continuing with the exercise to be honest.

Then l thought about just adding a token amount enough to seal the rim, but gave up with that idea.

If it would have done my plan was to carry a small aerosol tin of the Vittoria sealant to be used in the event of a flat.
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Post by Patch » 24 Feb 2016 08:20

No Martin I agree once it's got a big hole in it its dead. At lower pressures on bigger tyres it's not really an issue. I had a massive hole in one of my Trail Kings and was at the time pissed off that a nearly new tyre was ruined. It sealed though and I'm still using it a year later.
i haven't experienced the drying out that Alan describes I change about 5 tubeless tyres a month in the summer for customers. You get some localised congealing but this is usually where **flat**s have been sealed and you just take off one side of the tyre dry it all out with a rag pop it back on and replenish sealant. I must emphasise though that we only use proper tubeless tyres and rims. No trying to make a non tubeless tyre seal. None tubeless tyres do not have an airtight carcass. you can put the sealant in and you can get it to work but of course the sealant will plug up all the leaky bits of the non tubeless tyre causing it to congeal all over the inside of the tyre.
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Post by AlanW » 24 Feb 2016 09:05

Patch wrote:i haven't experienced the drying out that Alan describes I change about 5 tubeless tyres a month in the summer for customers.
I think that maybe the amount of miles ridden also plays a part of how quickly the sealant solidifies? Which I guess its maybe logical that if the wheels spend a lot of time revolving then the centrifugal force will keep throwing the sealant outwards onto the inside of the tyre?

And has Chris says, only use tubeless specific tyres. otherwise this happens - HERE :oops: :oops:
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Post by AlanW » 25 Feb 2016 18:04

THIS is exactly the tool you need to check the thickness of the rims, saves faffing about with bits of old spoke.
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